Is Unbelief a sin ?

[Dave G]

Here's what I see when I read the words in context:

1) Paul is declaring himself an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and addressing the saints at Ephesus, and the faithful in Jesus Christ.
2) He extends grace and peace, which is from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus.
3) He then declares that God is blessed, and He is the Father of our Lord Jesus. He ( God the Father ) has blessed the faithful in Jesus Christ with all spiritual blessings that are in heavenly places.
4) According as God the Father has chosen us ( the faithful from verse 1) "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, so that we ( the faithful ) should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
5) God having predestinated us ( chose the destiny for those faithful in Christ ) to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself. This was done according to the good pleasure of His will.
6) Also, it was done according to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein ( in His grace ) He has made the faithful accepted in the beloved ( all who are loved by God ).
7) In whom ( in the beloved, mentioned in verse 6 ) we have redemption through Christ's blood, which includes the forgiveness of sins and is according to the riches of His grace.
8) Wherein ( in His grace ) He ( God the Father ) has abounded ( overflowing ) toward us ( the faithful ) in all wisdom and grace.
9) Having made known to us ( the faithful in Christ ) the mystery of His will, which is according to the good pleasure which He has purposed within Himself.
10) That in the dispensation ( order ) of the fullness of times ( when He brings it to pass ), He might ( signifies purposes ) gather together in one all things in Christ...both which are in Heaven and which are on earth. Those things being gathered are those that are "in Him", or in Christ.
11) In whom ( in Christ ) we also have obtained ( received ) an inheritance...and inheritance that we ( the faithful ) were predestinated to according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will ( the Lord God the Father from verse 4 ).
12) Why? So that we ( the faithful ) should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.

So, just like a newspaper and reading it line by line, what I've summarized is what I see when I read it for myself.
What do you see when you do this, if I may ask?

What I'm curious about, is whether or not what you see, line by line, is anywhere near what I see;
Which could go a long way towards me understanding where we disagree.

 

[Silverhair]

I did.
I clearly see that we're told why they believed:

"...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

So, the ones who believed are qualified by, " as many as were ordained to eternal life"....that is the context.
Are you telling me not to believe what's written?

I am telling you to believe what the context tells you not what you think a single verse taken out of context tells you.

You want the text to support your theology that says you must be saved before you can believe but that is not what scripture tells us is it. Your obvious misunderstanding of that text has lead you to the wrong understanding.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes.
Just like a newspaper, I read it line by line, chapter by chapter...paying careful attention to what's written on the page.

Of course not.
I read the whole thing, start to finish....

Again, paying careful attention to what is written, and in the context it's developed in.

But you do not read one line and then say that is what the story is about. As you just said you read all of the article and that informs you of the authors intent for writing the article.

Just as the letters we find in the bible need to be read in total, not picking out one verses here another line there.

What surprises me s that you say you read the whole thing yet you seem to ignore the context.

 

[Dave G]

I am telling you to believe what the context tells you not what you think a single verse taken out of context tells you.

I am.
For example, what context are you referring to when the Bible says, "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."?

The words speak for themselves, do they not?

But you do not read one line and then say that is what the story is about.

I'm not.

I'm reading it as a whole, just like a newspaper or book.
The details that I get from the words on the page, determines what I understand about it.

Is there a way that I'm not aware of that tells me I'm not to read the Bible like that, and not to believe the words on the page as they are written?

 

[Dave G]

You want the text to support your theology that says you must be saved before you can believe but that is not what scripture tells us is it.

Silverhair...
I've already confessed to you that my theology is based strictly on what I see when I read it for myself.
So how can I bring in something that didn't exist in the first place ( a pre-conceived theology that I'm approaching the text with )?

Do you bring in an understanding of the text from someone ( or somewhere ) else, or do you read it , never having been influenced by another person?

 

[Silverhair]

Here's what I see when I read the words in context:

1) Paul is declaring himself an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and addressing the saints at Ephesus, and the faithful in Jesus Christ.
2) He extends grace and peace, which is from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus.
3) He then declares that God is blessed, and He is the Father of our Lord Jesus. He ( God the Father ) has blessed the faithful in Jesus Christ with all spiritual blessings that are in heavenly places.
4) According as God the Father has chosen us ( the faithful from verse 1) "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, so that we ( the faithful ) should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
5) God having predestinated us ( chose the destiny for those faithful in Christ ) to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself. This was done according to the good pleasure of His will.
6) Also, it was done according to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein ( in His grace ) He has made the faithful accepted in the beloved ( all who are loved by God ).
7) In whom ( in the beloved, mentioned in verse 6 ) we have redemption through Christ's blood, which includes the forgiveness of sins and is according to the riches of His grace.
8) Wherein ( in His grace ) He ( God the Father ) has abounded ( overflowing ) toward us ( the faithful ) in all wisdom and grace.
9) Having made known to us ( the faithful in Christ ) the mystery of His will, which is according to the good pleasure which He has purposed within Himself.
10) That in the dispensation ( order ) of the fullness of times ( when He brings it to pass ), He might ( signifies purposes ) gather together in one all things in Christ...both which are in Heaven and which are on earth. Those things being gathered are those that are "in Him", or in Christ.
11) In whom ( in Christ ) we also have obtained ( received ) an inheritance...and inheritance that we ( the faithful ) were predestinated to according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will ( the Lord God the Father from verse 4 ).
12) Why? So that we ( the faithful ) should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.

So, just like a newspaper and reading it line by line, what I've summarized is what I see when I read it for myself.
What do you see when you do this, if I may ask?

What I'm curious about, is whether or not what you see, line by line, is anywhere near what I see;
Which could go a long way towards me understanding where we disagree.

Actually I do not see much that I would disagree with in how you wrote your comments. Although from your prior comment I do see that we would have a different understanding of verse 4.
We are not chosen/saved in eternity past as that would contradict what Paul wrote in vs 13-14. God's plan from eternity has been to save those that would freely believe in His son, Christ Jesus.

I am curious as to why you stopped prior to what can be considered Paul's wrap up his comments. Paul went on to explain how we believers were to receive all those blessings.
Eph 1:13 In Him, {Christ Jesus} you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, {those that believe} to the praise of His glory.

If you ignore the last two verses you will misunderstand the rest of Paul's comments.

 

[Brightfame52]

I did.
I clearly see that we're told why they believed:

"...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

So, the ones who believed are qualified by, " as many as were ordained to eternal life"....that is the context.
Are you telling me not to believe what's written?

Correct, and Jesus tells us why some dont believe Jn 10:26

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And He died for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 so the Gentiles who believed in Acts 13:48 were Jesus Sheep, which He gave eternal life.

 

[Brightfame52]

Actually I do not see much that I would disagree with in how you wrote your comments. Although from your prior comment I do see that we would have a different understanding of verse 4.
We are not chosen/saved in eternity past as that would contradict what Paul wrote in vs 13-14. God's plan from eternity has been to save those that would freely believe in His son, Christ Jesus.

I am curious as to why you stopped prior to what can be considered Paul's wrap up his comments. Paul went on to explain how we believers were to receive all those blessings.
Eph 1:13 In Him, {Christ Jesus} you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, {those that believe} to the praise of His glory.

If you ignore the last two verses you will misunderstand the rest of Paul's comments.

Those who heard the word of Truth in Eph 1:13 were regenerated, one has to be born of God to hear Gods word Spiritually, the Gospel is Spiritual food and information Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The word heareth here and heard in Eph 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Its the same word in the greek akouō:

1. to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2. to hear
   1. to attend to, consider what is or has been said
   2. to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3. • to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
   • to comprehend, to understand

So Eph 1:13 applies to the born again Elect, we know they were elect already from Eph 1:4

 

[Van]

I quote you and you say I have misrepresented your position. Van do you not understanding what a quote means?

Yet another deflection, another attempt to change the subject to me.

 

[Silverhair]

Yet another deflection, another attempt to change the subject to me.

Still will not answer questions will you Van. You make an accusation and when I point out that I have quoted you you still think everything is about you.

From the way you respond you must be very insecure. And yes that was a comment about you in case you are wondering.

 

[Silverhair]

Those who heard the word of Truth in Eph 1:13 were regenerated, one has to be born of God to hear Gods word Spiritually, the Gospel is Spiritual food and information Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The word heareth here and heard in Eph 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Its the same word in the greek akouō:

1. to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2. to hear
   1. to attend to, consider what is or has been said
   2. to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3. • to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
   • to comprehend, to understand

So Eph 1:13 applies to the born again Elect, we know they were elect already from Eph 1:4

You are a classic example of someone that cherry picks verses in the attempt to support their view.

 

[Van]

Still will not answer questions will you Van. You make an accusation and when I point out that I have quoted you you still think everything is about you.

From the way you respond you must be very insecure. And yes that was a comment about you in case you are wondering.

Still addressing me, still not addressing the topic. False teachers use logical fallacies to hide false doctrine.

 

[Silverhair]

Still addressing me, still not addressing the topic. False teachers use logical fallacies to hide false doctrine.

Van you are inconsistent in your comments even within the same post.

From Post # 81
Your words Van

"No one said or suggested "sin" is inherited.

Clearly babies are conceived in a fallen state, i.e. made sinners, with a depraved or fallen nature.
No one said we were made sinners because of our mother's sin, scripture clearly says it was because of Adam's sin, alone."

If we do not inherit sin than how are we guilty of Adam's sin?

We are guilty of our own sins not our parents or Adam's.

 

[Van]

Van you are inconsistent in your comments even within the same post.

From Post # 81
Your words Van

"No one said or suggested "sin" is inherited.

Clearly babies are conceived in a fallen state, i.e. made sinners, with a depraved or fallen nature.
No one said we were made sinners because of our mother's sin, scripture clearly says it was because of Adam's sin, alone."

If we do not inherit sin than how are we guilty of Adam's sin?

We are guilty of our own sins not our parents or Adam's.

Endless falsehoods. Humanity is "made sinners" as a consequence of Adam's sin. When conceived, we have done nothing good or bad, thus we are not guilty of Adam's sin, we are "sinners" as a consequence of Adam's sin.

We were not made sinners through a biological process "inherited" from our parents.
Post 81:

No one said or suggested "sin" is inherited. However the consequence of sin affects others, recall visiting the sins of the father on subsequent generations.
Every person is responsible for their own conduct, but not for their initial condition, depraved and separated from God.
I agree with the doctrine of an age of accountability, some people die before they become accountable. But they started out depraved and in a sinful separated from God state, and only belief in Christ provides the means of redemption when and if God credits that faith as righteousness.
The illustration of being like little children, refers to trusting fully and without reservation in Christ.
Again, no one said our human spirit was inherited from our parents, scripture says God forms our human spirit within us.
Clearly babies are conceived in a fallen state, i.e. made sinners, with a depraved or fallen nature.
No one said we were made sinners because of our mother's sin, scripture clearly says it was because of Adam's sin, alone.​

 

[Dave G]

I am curious as to why you stopped prior to what can be considered Paul's wrap up his comments.

I stopped because I felt that was what was pertinent to the discussion.
My intent was to see how you understood verse 4, and that's where we disagree the most, it seems.

To me, verse 4 is what I like to call a "significant factor" in why I believe the way that I do.
It's far from the only place that speaks of being chosen to salvation or "in Christ", but probably the only one I'm aware of that states that it happened before the foundation of the world.

We are not chosen/saved in eternity past as that would contradict what Paul wrote in vs 13-14.

That's exactly what I see verse 4 stating, and again, where we disagree.
I see nothing in verses 13 and 14 that would contradict this when I read it:

" in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." ( Ephesians 1:13-14 ).

So, carrying over the "who first trusted in Christ " ( describing what I see as Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus ),
I read it this way:

13) in whom ye ( the Ephesian believers and the faithful in Christ from verse 1 ) also ( "trusted" is in italics and was added for continuity in the AV, but inferred from verse 12 ), which happened after they heard the word of truth, which is the Gospel of their salvation. Paul then adds, for reinforcement, " in whom also after you ( again, the Ephesian believers as well as who was addressed in verse1, the faithful in Jesus Christ, all of us ) believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise".
14) This sealing, or spiritual "mark" which God places upon the believer, is the "earnest", or down-payment of the believer's inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession...which is to the praise of His glory. It is when the Spirit indwells the believer.

 

[Dave G]

Paul went on to explain how we believers were to receive all those blessings.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how you reach that conclusion from verses 13 and 14.

To me, it clearly states when believers are sealed ( which I understand to mean "indwelt" ) by the Holy Spirit... after they hear and believe.
In the Greek, the word is, "ἐσφραγίσθητε" which means "you were sealed".
It does not say that they were born again ( "γεννηθη ανωθεν" ), nor does it say regeneration (" παλιγγενεσιας" ) or again born / begotten ("αναγεννησας").

Again, there's another difference in our personal understandings, and which acts as a focus point for our disagreement on this subject.
I see "sealed" in verse 13 the exact same way as I see it described in 2 Corinthians 1:21-22:

" Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
22 who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Same here:

" And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." ( Ephesians 4:30 ).

In the above, I see that the believer is marked by God until the day of their redemption.
This "mark" involves being indwelt by the Spirit.

 

[Brightfame52]

You are a classic example of someone that cherry picks verses in the attempt to support their view.

Dont you ever tell anybody to show you scripture about a point they making, cause you aint going to believe the scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

I stopped because I felt that was what was pertinent to the discussion.
My intent was to see how you handled verse 4, and that's where we disagree the most, it seems.

To me, verse 4 is what I like to call a "significant factor" in why I believe the way that I do.
It's far from the only place that speaks of being chosen to salvation or "in Christ", but probably the only one I'm aware of that states that it happened before the foundation of the world.

That's exactly what I see verse 4 stating, and again, where we disagree.
I see nothing in verses 13 and 14 that would contradict this when I read it:

" in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." ( Ephesians 1:13-14 ).

So, carrying over the "who first trusted in Christ " ( describing what I see as Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus ),
I read it this way:

13) in whom ye ( the Ephesian believers and the faithful in Christ from verse 1 ) also ( "trusted" is in italics and was added for continuity in the AV, but inferred from verse 12 ), which happened after they heard the word of truth, which is the Gospel of their salvation. Paul then adds, for reinforcement, " in whom also after you ( again, the Ephesian believers as well as who was addressed in verse1, the faithful in Jesus Christ, all of us ) believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
14) This sealing, or spiritual "mark" which God places upon the believer, is the "earnest", or down-payment of the believer's inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession...which is to the praise of His glory. It is when the Spirit indwells the believer.

The words are rather self-explanatory. Whether you think these words apply only to the Ephesians or to all believers the words are clear.
Eph 1:13 In Him, {Christ Jesus} you also, {Ephesians or all believers} after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, {the order is clear Hear then Believe} you were sealed in Him {one is now in Christ Jesus through faith} with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, {our future in heaven with God} with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, {His children through faith} to the praise of His glory.

I have to ask, when do you think the Holy Spirit indwells the person?

 

[Silverhair]

Dont you ever tell anybody to show you scripture about a point they making, cause you aint going to believe the scripture.

Anyone can take verses out of context in the attempt to make them support their view. The cults do that all the time.

 

[Silverhair]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how you reach that conclusion from verses 13 and 14.

To me, it clearly states when believers are sealed ( which I understand to mean "indwelt" ) by the Holy Spirit... after they hear and believe.
In the Greek, the word is, "ἐσφραγίσθητε" which means "you were sealed".
It does not say that they were born again ( "γεννηθη ανωθεν" ), nor does it say regeneration (" παλιγγενεσιας" ) or again born / begotten ("αναγεννησας").

Again, there's another difference in our personal understandings, and which acts as a focus point for our disagreement on this subject.
I see "sealed" in verse 13 the exact same way as I see it described in 2 Corinthians 1:21-22:

" Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
22 who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Same here:

" And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." ( Ephesians 4:30 ).

In the above, I see that the believer is marked by God until the day of their redemption.
This "mark" involves being indwelt by the Spirit.

So if those that hear the gospel message and believe it are sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit do you not think they are saved. I ask because on one hand you say they are but then you seem to say they are not.

As I understand it one is only sealed by the Holy Spirit once they believe, are born again. Do you think they are sealed by the Holy Spirit prior to or even without believing?