Isaiah 14:12: Lucifer, Satan, Morning Star

[Rob_BW]

Well, if your only tactic to attack my position is to call me a Reform Jew, then I reckon that says more about the tenuous foundation of your position than it does about mine.

There are a myriad of verses that discuss Satan. Just because some don't believe that Isaiah 14 is one of them doesn't mean that we don't believe in Satan.

 

[loDebar]

Well, if your only tactic to attack my position is to call me a Reform Jew, then I reckon that says more about the tenuous foundation of your position than it does about mine.

There are a myriad of verses that discuss Satan. Just because some don't believe that Isaiah 14 is one of them doesn't mean that we don't believe in Satan.

I am not attacking at all. I am showing the company who does use this verse as you suggest. I am comparing to the liberal Jews I have spoken to, not the denomination. I do not know the group teachings. I have since learned that most do not or probably do not believe in Satan. May be 11% do.

I know the Jehovah's witness do not believe in a person and choose this verse as proof ,Lucifer, to be a man.

It is not the Latin name but by the meaning that show it to be more than a man,

How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.

no man is ever called this, angels are:
Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[Rob_BW]

So verse 13, "the mount of the gods' assembly, in the remotest parts of the north." What is the explanation of that verse? A hitherto unknown hangout of the heavenly host? (Pardon my love of alliteration.)

Or Mount Zaphon, a northerly mountain long associated with Canaanite and other pagan gods. Pagan gods who are challenged by prideful upstarts.

 

[loDebar]

Hierarchy of heaven, as in Ezekiel 28

Sides of the north as in Psalms for location of Heaven

 

[David Kent]

Hierarchy of heaven, as in Ezekiel 28

Sides of the north as in Psalms for location of Heaven

No, Jerusalem

 

[loDebar]

No, Jerusalem

Isaiah 14 13

 

[David Kent]

Isaiah 14 13

Not revelant, refers to the king of Babylon,

Isaiah 14:4 ¶ That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

 

[loDebar]

Not revelant, refers to the king of Babylon,

Isaiah 14:4 ¶ That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

A man? Above stars of God ,other angels

Look at verse 14. Was this a man?

Read David's Psalms 48

 

[David Kent]

A man? Above stars of God ,other angels

Look at verse 14. Was this a man?

Read David's Psalms 48

Look at verse 14. Was this a man?

Yes it was: Fulfilled

It is a proverb or parable, that is, it is symbolic.

Stars in prophecy refer to men, leading men.

• 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
• Daniel 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
  10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
  11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
  
  
• Daniel 4:20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
  21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
  22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
  
  

 

[David Kent]

• Daniel 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

 

[loDebar]

Look at verse 14. Was this a man?

Yes it was: Fulfilled

It is a proverb or parable, that is, it is symbolic.

Stars in prophecy refer to men, leading men.

• 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
• Daniel 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
  10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
  11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
  
• Daniel 4:20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
  21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
  22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
  

Stars refer to other angels

Look at verse 14. Was this a man?

Yes it was: Fulfilled

It is a proverb or parable, that is, it is symbolic.

Stars in prophecy refer to men, leading men.

• 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
• Daniel 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
  10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
  11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
  
• Daniel 4:20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
  21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
  22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
  

Stars are angels, or heavenly persons

You did not read Psals 48 did you?

 

[kyredneck]

In my opinion, 'Lucifer' is referring to the Babylonian king, not a pre-fallen Satan.

Think about this:

5 And he led him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, To thee will I give all this authority, and the glory of them: for it hath been delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. Lu 4

'Lucifer' is referring to Satan through his proxy the king of Babylon.

Think about this:

I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me; Jn 14:30 [see John 18:20 for "the world" defined]

Looky who came, the proxy:

Judas then, having received the band of soldiers, and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. Jn 18:3"

Think about this:

14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

Who did the bruising? The proxy of course:

and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. Lu 24:20

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8:44

Think about this:

10 to the intent that now unto the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places might be made known through the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph 3
12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Eph 6

These "principalities and powers in the heavenly places" are manifested through their proxies in this time realm.

 

[David Kent]

Stars refer to other angels


Stars are angels, or heavenly persons

You did not read Psals 48 did you?

I did read Psalm 48.

Stars are rulers in Prophecy.

• Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
• Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

• Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
• 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
• 11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.
• Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The angels in Rev 1 are messengers or pastors of the 7 churches

Stars in prophecy refer to people.

We still refer to people as stars as in Pop Stars, Film stars, etc.

 

[David Kent]

Note also, The Host of Heaven in Daniel 8:10 are also rulers.

When you a bible reference, it would help if give the full book name and the chapter or chapter and verse so we can click on it and it will take us to the scripture for example
Genesis 5:7
Genesis 5:7-9

 

[loDebar]

Job 38:6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Are " morning stars" people at creation?

Psa 48:1¶
[[A Song and Psalm for the sons of Korah.]] Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, inthe mountain of his holiness.
Psa 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
Psa 48:3
God is known in her palaces for a refuge.

Is this "sides of north" Jerusalem?

Revelations has Angels are messengers, which could be Spirit Lead Pastors, but other heavenly beings are not messengers,

Daniel 8:10 is a vision and Gen 37 is a dream ,

All references to stars not heavenly beings but the references of Isaiah 14 are many others are

 

[loDebar]

Kent from Kent, You must be related to the Prince

 

[David Kent]

Daniel 8:10 is a vision and Gen 37 is a dream ,

It is still prophecy. Revelation is a vision. It is also symbolic or signified, told by signs, Revelation 1:1

 

[David Kent]

Kent from Kent, You must be related to the Prince

No, I just live here. I was born in London,

 

[Rob_BW]

When was Satan cast out of his tomb? Who are his offspring/children in vs. 21-22?

 

[loDebar]

When was Satan cast out of his tomb? Who are his offspring/children in vs. 21-22?

Rev 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:7
¶
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


the devil has many followers
Jhn 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.