Israel?

[1689Dave]

All the time.




Well, for one, when we read Scripture we are allowing God to work in our hearts, to illuminate the Word to us.

Most people do not actually ahve a faith they can call their own, their faith is on loan from their Pastor.




He did, and does. As a matter of fact he recommended a book as I was leaving Sunday.




I am sure he did, though I can't verify that specifically. But isn't that what people expect? For those in leadership to have a degree? lol

Why is it that a man being indoctrinated and then given a piece of paper stating he has sufficiently bowed to that indoctrination makes one a spokesman for Christ?

I know of only one Scholar among the Apostles, that was Paul. The rest were pretty ordinary guys, with the exception of one thing: they believed God would do what He said He would do.




In total? Not in quite some time. There is always going to be something in every sermon we can criticize (and I don't mean criticism in a bad way).




There is a big difference between reading and listening. When we read, we engage our mind in a more active manner. Secondly, as I said, we allow God to work in our hearts rather than imposing the bias all preachers place into their sermons.

Lastly, while a sermon may have the Word f God in it...it is not the Word of God.

Big difference.




Apparently you don't believe that. I have just given you Scripture that makes it clear that God has not cast away His people and that they will be brought into relationship with Him under the promised New Covenant...

...and you have rejected that Word.


God bless.

I don't know of one theology book or creed I agree with completely. But if I need a quick answer, they can point you to the right area of scripture. Of course Jesus said his words are Spirit and Life. And Books are just books. But sometimes I go to a book to see if I'm on the right track, drawing the conclusions I do from scripture. So Bible first, but there's safety in a multitude of counselors.

 

[kyredneck]

so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Yes. At the time of the writing, around 56 AD, there were many elect believing Jews alive that God foreknew and did not cast off.. But of the two God has made to be one, and there is no distinction made:

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12​

12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11

9 and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15

22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10

11 where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3

28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3

 

[1689Dave]

Dave, I just want to say you are taking my chain yanking in very good form, so I commend you for that.




God bless.

Thanks for taking the time to share.

 

[Darrell C]

I don't know of one theology book or creed I agree with completely. But if I need a quick answer, they can point you to the right area of scripture. Of course Jesus said his words are Spirit and Life. And Books are just books. But sometimes I go to a book to see if I'm on the right track, drawing the conclusions I do from scripture. So Bible first, but there's safety in a multitude of counselors.

The problem is that they are not The Counselor, lol, and they seldom agree.

Scripture is the best commentary on Scripture. If you want a Biblical view on any given subject, you must balance everything God has already given us on that issue.

And if we think we see a contradiction, then we know we haven't understood something properly, because there is no contradiction in Scripture.

An example of this would be James and Paul in regards to justification. But, if we balance that with the fact that men must be justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus, we can understand that neither are saying that "Abraham was eternally redeemed because he believed God enough to offer up his son Isaac." What James is saying is that before men, from a temporal perspective, men are justified by their works even as Abraham was, and Paul is saying on the curtails of his teaching in Romans 3, "You can believe we are freely justified by our faith in Christ, because we see Abraham was freely justified himself."

And I am not saying that commentaries are to be avoided, I think they are helpful for those not familiar with Scripture, and can be helpful for those who are as well. I recommend highly the MacArthur Study Bible, not so much for the commentary (which is mostly very good), but because the cross referencing is phenomenal. And that is, as I said, the best way to interpret Scripture...with Scripture.


God bless.

 

[1689Dave]

The problem is that they are not The Counselor, lol, and they seldom agree.

Scripture is the best commentary on Scripture. If you want a Biblical view on any given subject, you must balance everything God has already given us on that issue.

And if we think we see a contradiction, then we know we haven't understood something properly, because there is no contradiction in Scripture.

An example of this would be James and Paul in regards to justification. But, if we balance that with the fact that men must be justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus, we can understand that neither are saying that "Abraham was eternally redeemed because he believed God enough to offer up his son Isaac." What James is saying is that before men, from a temporal perspective, men are justified by their works even as Abraham was, and Paul is saying on the curtails of his teaching in Romans 3, "You can believe we are freely justified by our faith in Christ, because we see Abraham was freely justified himself."

And I am not saying that commentaries are to be avoided, I think they are helpful for those not familiar with Scripture, and can be helpful for those who are as well. I recommend highly the MacArthur Study Bible, not so much for the commentary (which is mostly very good), but because the cross referencing is phenomenal. And that is, as I said, the best way to interpret Scripture...with Scripture.


God bless.

But it's still Bible plus.....this or that. If this or that is not good, we should avoid church altogether.

 

[Darrell C]

Romans 11
King James Version (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Yes. At the time of the writing, around 56 AD, there were many elect believing Jews alive that God foreknew and did not cast off.. But of the two God has made to be one, and there is no distinction made:

But there is a distinction made between National Israel and those of Israel who have been made one with Christ.

Just because Jews and Gentiles are one with Christ does not negate the Scripture given you.

As mentioned before, this...


Romans 9:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


...does not nullify what he teaches just prior:


Romans 9
King James Version (KJV)

9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


We don't see "To whom the promises once pertained," because he will go on to show that they will, as a Nation, receive those promises:


Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


So put it all together:

"Has God cast away Israel? God forbid! He has not. Understand that for now they are in part blind to the Mystery of the Gospel but, the Deliverer will come out of Sion and all Israel will be saved. Because that is what God promised them when He promised a New Covenant."

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

And when Israel is saved by the Deliverer they will be of that One Flock.

Right now they are not, which is why Paul's desire is that the people to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises...would be saved.

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

There was still a distinction made of Jew and Gentile in regards to, as the other member mentioned...DNA:


Galatians 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We see this distinction throughout the New Testament, including Revelation.

A Jew was not compelled to cast off his heritage, and a Gentile was not compelled to adopt it. Being one with Christ doesn't alter the fact of whether we are a Jew or a Gentile by birth.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6​

His point is that salvation is not by heritage, meaning the picture that Israel portrayed of the "People of God" in the Old Testament is not to be confused with the People of God in the eternal sense, when men have been baptized into Christ and are one new man.

You are really going to have to address the points and Scripture already given, because they make it pretty clear: National Israel will be saved one day. I know the Eschatological view you take conflicts with that, but, that is what Paul states in Romans 9-11.

13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12

Note that it states whether we are Jews or Greeks, lol.

It doesn't say "There is no more physical Israel.

Paul makes it clear that He is a Jew:


Romans 9
King James Version (KJV)

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Romans 11
King James Version (KJV)

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


Philippians 3
King James Version (KJV)

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11

9 and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15

22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10

But that is in Christ.

It does not mean that God has cast away Israel, or that Israel is no longer the People God made numerous promises to. Nor that God will renege on those promises.

11 where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3

Again, doesn't nullify Paul's teaching that God has not cast away ISrael.

28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3

Now the big question: was any man in Christ prior to Pentecost?




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

But it's still Bible plus.....this or that. If this or that is not good, we should avoid church altogether.

For most it is Bible-plus, but I try very hard not to allow bias to interfere with my studies.

And one thing I will say, Dave, is that not everyone takes as much interest in the Word of God as those, like yourself, who frequent Christian Doctrinal Discussion and Debate Forums. I personally think that most who do have been gifted by God in areas of the Word, and that this is why there is such an intense desire to eat of the Word more often than a couple hours a week. And it is great training for us. We need to have our doctrines examined by other members of the Body, because it can help us to avoid creating personal theologies. When we assert something, a brother or sister might be able to come along and say "That is not entirely correct, because..." and we are forced to examine their objection or point.

But there has to come a time when study of the Word is something we can do without relying on others to do it for us. While many think the Word of God is complicated and better left to men with degrees, the truth is that God have us His Word for the express purpose that we know His will for us. Why would He put it out of reach? One doesn't have to go to Seminary to understand God's Word, one need only look to the Author. And the more time we spend in the Word the easier it gets. A preacher once said, "Before I presume to teach out of any book, I will sit down and read it fifty times." That's good advice. Because when we can compare Scripture with Scripture, we find a balance in the Whole Counsel of God.

As far as going to Church, well, that is a matter of worship and fellowship in my view. Sure, we hope our Pastor's are speaking to us for God, and that he competently handles the Word of God, but that is not the only reason we go.


God bless.

 

[church mouse guy]

On the question of creeds, I myself can say that thee is not one word that I disagree with in The 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. Southern Baptist Convention > The Baptist Faith and Message

Now we have God's promise to Abraham listed in Genesis. For example:

Genesis 12:7 (KJV) And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

So it seems that Israel was promised to Abraham's seed, which is plain enough physical descendants with the DNA of Abraham and Sarah. Those people with that DNA are still alive and are called Jews. Those who do not have that DNA are called Gentiles.

 

[Darrell C]

On the question of creeds, I myself can say that thee is not one word that I disagree with in The 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. Southern Baptist Convention > The Baptist Faith and Message

Now we have God's promise to Abraham listed in Genesis. For example:

Genesis 12:7 (KJV) And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

So it seems that Israel was promised to Abraham's seed, which is plain enough physical descendants with the DNA of Abraham and Sarah. Those people with that DNA are still alive and are called Jews. Those who do not have that DNA are called Gentiles.

I think what some might not consider is that the Promise of the Land pertains to this current creation, not the new heavens and Earth. The argument such as the one provided by KR does make sense, but, we distinguish between that which is physical and that which is eternal.

Israel is an Old Testament picture of the Church. The Church is a New Testament picture of the People of God in the Eternal State. Neither are meant to be taken as the ultimate fulfillment of Salvation in Christ and our eternal dwelling.


God bless.

 

[1689Dave]

For most it is Bible-plus, but I try very hard not to allow bias to interfere with my studies.

And one thing I will say, Dave, is that not everyone takes as much interest in the Word of God as those, like yourself, who frequent Christian Doctrinal Discussion and Debate Forums. I personally think that most who do have been gifted by God in areas of the Word, and that this is why there is such an intense desire to eat of the Word more often than a couple hours a week. And it is great training for us. We need to have our doctrines examined by other members of the Body, because it can help us to avoid creating personal theologies. When we assert something, a brother or sister might be able to come along and say "That is not entirely correct, because..." and we are forced to examine their objection or point.

But there has to come a time when study of the Word is something we can do without relying on others to do it for us. While many think the Word of God is complicated and better left to men with degrees, the truth is that God have us His Word for the express purpose that we know His will for us. Why would He put it out of reach? One doesn't have to go to Seminary to understand God's Word, one need only look to the Author. And the more time we spend in the Word the easier it gets. A preacher once said, "Before I presume to teach out of any book, I will sit down and read it fifty times." That's good advice. Because when we can compare Scripture with Scripture, we find a balance in the Whole Counsel of God.

As far as going to Church, well, that is a matter of worship and fellowship in my view. Sure, we hope our Pastor's are speaking to us for God, and that he competently handles the Word of God, but that is not the only reason we go.


God bless.

Thanks for mentioning this. I normally use the Westminster and London baptist Confessions before I say anything in matters of sin and grace. If I cannot get a clear witness there I drop it. I also use the Mennonite Anabaptist Schleitheim Confession on ethics. So I don't wander off tilt in those matters. And I use the Reformed for Eschatology. But I believe the church is purely invisible until two or more meet in Jesus name. It becomes visible, and then it returns to being invisible when the meeting is over. (My only deviation from Amillennialism). So I think even if what I say sounds questionable to some, it is merely because I'm their first exposure to it. But thanks for checking on me.

 

[Darrell C]

On the question of creeds, I myself can say that thee is not one word that I disagree with in The 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. Southern Baptist Convention > The Baptist Faith and Message

Now we have God's promise to Abraham listed in Genesis. For example:

Genesis 12:7 (KJV) And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

So it seems that Israel was promised to Abraham's seed, which is plain enough physical descendants with the DNA of Abraham and Sarah. Those people with that DNA are still alive and are called Jews. Those who do not have that DNA are called Gentiles.

I would disagree with this:

X. Last Things
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.


The Southern Baptist fellowships I have been a member of in the past were all Pre-Tribulation Rapturists, whereas this seems more a-millennial. Any idea how long they have taken this position?


God bless.

 

[church mouse guy]

I would disagree with this:

X. Last Things
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.


The Southern Baptist fellowships I have been a member of in the past were all Pre-Tribulation Rapturists, whereas this seems more a-millennial. Any idea how long they have taken this position?


God bless.

I think that it is sufficiently vague that it sidesteps any particular eschatology, leaving you to believe whatever you like on that point. You can still be a dispensationalist, but it is not spelled out in the Baptist Faith and Message.

 

[prophecy70]

It doesn't say "There is no more physical Israel.

Paul makes it clear that He is a Jew:

Exactly, he is saying the Jews are not all rejecting and lost, Paul is saved by Grace like the Gentiles. And grafting them together.

 

[Calypsis4]

This is correct. Circumcision made one a physical member of Israel, not blood. Because Isaac's blood relatives were cut of from Israel, made gentiles, unless circumcised Genesis 17:14. Normally on their 8th day. Many gentiles became Jews also through circumcision Esther 8:17. When Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross Colossians 2:14, nothing remained to make one a Physical member of Israel. Israel continued under Jesus with those circumcised in heart, that is believers like Abraham. God broke off the unbelievers and replaced them with believing gentiles (per Romans 11).Today's physical Israel are gentiles who practice jewish customs and rituals, calling themselves Israel.

You sir, did not answer my questions:

Oh? Tell us, which of the twelve tribes do you belong to? Then prove it by your family genealogy.

What is then the name of the gentile who will sit upon the Throne of David (a prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled).

What shall we do with the promise in Ezekiel concerning the land and the boundaries that Israel will be given. Ezek. 47:13-22.

Why, if the modern state of Israel is not the object of the Abrahamic covenant have they won every single battle against all of their Arab neighbors since 1948?

 

[robycop3]

Today's nation of Israel is actually the nation of JUDAH. Scriptural proof is found in Isaiah 19 where God sais the land of Judah shall become a terror to Egypt. I believe we all know that when the 6 million Jews rattle their Uzis, the 80 million Egyptians are frightened whether they'll admit it or not!

The Jews are the only members of Israel that have never lost their national ID, and many of them believe they're the ONLY survivors of Israel. But SCRIPTURE says otherwise! God said Ezekiel's famous valley of bones vision represented the WHOLE House of Israel. And all 12 tribes are mentioned in several prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled.

Remember, the Promised Land stretches from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates River., & some Israeli tribes have never occupied their assigned areas. But God didn't make those promises with no intention of keeping them. No pronouncement of God's to man is just empty words! It WILL come to pass! Some day, all Israel will be one nation again, not just a Jewish state.

 

[Reformed]

Physical Israel is purely a myth since Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross.

This was the hardest thing for me to accept when I began to question Dispensationalism. Eventually, I accepted the truth that the modern state of Israel has zero connection to covenant Israel. This does not mean that I denigrate Jews or the secular state of Israel. Modern Israel is a valuable ally of the United States in the eastern Mediterranean. It is the curator of sites that are of a strong emotional attachment to Christians. However, Galatians 3:7-9 make it clear that faith in Christ is the determinative factor in who is part of spiritual Israel; and it is spiritual Israel that is the recipient of God's blessings (Gal. 3:9; 3:18).

 

[church mouse guy]

And it is physical DNA Jews who were give title to the property in an everlasting covenant given by God Himself. Or should one spiritualize everlasting covenant to mean something like until the Trinity change their minds?

 

[1689Dave]

You sir, did not answer my questions:

Oh? Tell us, which of the twelve tribes do you belong to? Then prove it by your family genealogy.

What is then the name of the gentile who will sit upon the Throne of David (a prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled).

What shall we do with the promise in Ezekiel concerning the land and the boundaries that Israel will be given. Ezek. 47:13-22.

Why, if the modern state of Israel is not the object of the Abrahamic covenant have they won every single battle against all of their Arab neighbors since 1948?

If you view Israel from the NT, today's Jews are gentiles who call themselves Jews. Because circumcision, not blood made one a Jew. In Esther's day, many gentiles became Jews because of what the Jews did to Haman and his followers. Plus, a mixed multitude came up from Egypt in the Exodus..all Jews by circumcision.

Today's Jews exist for one reason. Their hatred and rejection of Christ. The Jews who accepted him remained Israel under Jesus. Who since then reigns in Heavenly Jerusalem above, on David's Throne Forever, not for 1000 years on earth.

 

[Darrell C]

I think that it is sufficiently vague that it sidesteps any particular eschatology, leaving you to believe whatever you like on that point. You can still be a dispensationalist, but it is not spelled out in the Baptist Faith and Message.

I don't really see it as vague, but gives a specific timeline which doesn't include the Rapture.

Just out of curiosity, what view do you take?


God bless.