Israel

[Bro. Curtis]

Not really comparable to the situation since a Christian's response to violence is not the same as a government's.

Nope. I won't let you throw the sermon on the mount in our faces, then add that caveat. You should not have brought that up.

That said, I think the Christian in your scenario should try to get away or subdue the person, but not intentionally harm them or kill them.

The person has said they will not stop. There is no getting away or subduing.

I think the Christian is well within the will of God in eliminating the threat.

I mentioned the SoM because of the beatitude "Blessed are the Peacemakers." Most Christians in the US and on this board are giving blanket support to anything Israel does, including this unjust aggression.

Unjust aggression ? Again, they have said they will not stop until Israel ceases to exist. Sometimes the peacemaker is the guy, who, when he's done killing all the bad guys, there is peace. I'm thinking U.S.A., in both World Wars.

So Israel is "rightly defending" itself by blowing up a hundred people (there will be many more), half of which are women and children? That's really reasonable to you?

You're repeating one-side's propaganda. Is launching rockets indiscriminately into Israel reasonable to you ? Are you counting Israeli deaths ?

Yes, anyone who doesn't agree is liberal. The catch all smear that wins all arguments in some minds.

In your mind, perhaps. I haven't said the word.

Try and be reasonable.

Try and be honest.

 

[RLBosley]

Nope. I won't let you throw the sermon on the mount in our faces, then add that caveat. You should not have brought that up.

You apparently still don't understand what I was referring to when I mentioned the SoM. I was referring to the peacemakers part. We have blindly followed Israel into war and support them all the way, instead of being the peacemakers we are supposed to be.

The person has said they will not stop. There is no getting away or subduing.

I think the Christian is well within the will of God in eliminating the threat.

Scripture to support that?

Unjust aggression ? Again, they have said they will not stop until Israel ceases to exist. Sometimes the peacemaker is the guy, who, when he's done killing all the bad guys, there is peace. I'm thinking U.S.A., in both World Wars.

I am not saying they shouldn't defend themselves. But this response is not simple self-defense.

That's not making peace. At least not the kind of peace making Jesus spoke of.

You're repeating one-side's propaganda. Is launching rockets indiscriminately into Israel reasonable to you ? Are you counting Israeli deaths ?

I'm not repeating any propaganda. I never said Hamas was reasonable! Hamas is guilty of a wicked, evil thing. But the fact is that in this latest string of rocket attacks there have been 0 Israeli deaths. The Israeli response has killed over 100 people, many of which have been civilians not involved in the fighting.

Look, I don't know exactly how Israel would respond.

I don't have all the answers and I'll be the first to admit. But this response from Israel is not a measured response, it is not appropriate, it is wrong. Clearly doing the same thing that they have always done is not the answer, but neither is escalating the violence.

In your mind, perhaps. I haven't said the word.

Try and be honest.

Those weren't directed to you. I don't understand why you're getting upset and calling me a liar.

 

[padredurand]

0 Israeli deaths is due to the inability of Hamas to hit a target not a lack of murderous intent.

 

[Gina B]

How many rockets have been intercepted and stopped from doing harm only because of that defense system?
Damage, death - it is my understanding that damage and deaths by these rockets are encouraged to remain quiet. This is a defense tactic so the enemy will not know where/what works for them, and makes sense.
As far as no deaths from terrorists, how short are your memories? Do you not remember their names? Did you not pray the three would be found? Did you know one was a duel citizen of the United States?

Where did the support for Israel go? I have never known such harshness towards the land from believers. This is weird to read.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

You apparently still don't understand what I was referring to when I mentioned the SoM. I was referring to the peacemakers part. We have blindly followed Israel into war and support them all the way, instead of being the peacemakers we are supposed to be.

I haven't followed Israel anywhere. This has nothing to do with anything but Israel defending herself. You threw the Sermon on the Mount thing up to make a point about us supporting Israel in that manner is not what Christ preached, then when prodded about it, you say Israel isn't under any biblical command to restrain herself. It was a self-pious post, and it will be regarded as such.

Scripture to support that?

Blessed are the peacemakers. Can't have bullies walking around calling all the shots.

I am not saying they shouldn't defend themselves. But this response is not simple self-defense.

What part of "elimination of Israel" do you not understand ? Again, this isn't about prophecy.

That's not making peace. At least not the kind of peace making Jesus spoke of.

Pabulum.

I'm not repeating any propaganda. I never said Hamas was reasonable! Hamas is guilty of a wicked, evil thing. But the fact is that in this latest string of rocket attacks there have been 0 Israeli deaths. The Israeli response has killed over 100 people, many of which have been civilians not involved in the fighting.

Yup. Israel is much better at this.

Look, I don't know exactly how Israel would respond.

I don't have all the answers and I'll be the first to admit.

Then lay off with the "you guys forgot the Sermon on the Mount" stuff.

But this response from Israel is not a measured response, it is not appropriate, it is wrong. Clearly doing the same thing that they have always done is not the answer, but neither is escalating the violence.

Escalating the violence ? That's what's called "defense" now ? Again, what should Israel do ? Fire some rockets that miss their targets, as well ? Would that be a "proportional" response ?

Those weren't directed to you. I don't understand why you're getting upset and calling me a liar.

They were in a conversation you were having with me, and you gave no indication you were quoting someone else.

 

[Deacon]

Israel Defense Forces Warning Gaza Residents Before Airstrikes, Hamas Encouraging ‘Human Shields’ [LINK]

The IDF is using leaflets and phone calls to warn Gaza residents to evacuate buildings prior to airstrikes on Hamas terrorists.

Israel has a history of using leaflets and phone calls to warn civilians that an airstrike is impending, using the same approach during previous Gaza operations in 2008 and 2012.

Meanwhile, reports indicate that Hamas is encouraging Gaza residents to act as “human shields,” referring to the deliberate placement of civilians in harm’s way in order to prevent a strike on a particular target.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri was seen on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV praising the human shields, calling them “effective”.

http://www.algemeiner.com/
__________________

 

[Deacon]

Gaza militants fired more than 140 rockets at major Israeli residential areas Thursday, Israel's military said.
Rockets fired at southern Israel damaged homes, infrastructure and spread panic. Israelis rushed to bomb shelters as sirens wailed in major cities. About 5 million Israelis are in range of the Palestinian rocket attacks.

The Israeli military said it had struck a total of some 500 targets throughout the day, focusing on underground tunnel networks and rocket launching sites. In all, the military said it has hit some 860 sites since the operation started Tuesday.

"The military's successes so far have been very significant," Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon said. "We will continue until they understand that this escalation is not beneficial to them and that we will not tolerate rocket fire toward our towns and citizens."

 

[RLBosley]

I haven't followed Israel anywhere. This has nothing to do with anything but Israel defending herself. You threw the Sermon on the Mount thing up to make a point about us supporting Israel in that manner is not what Christ preached, then when prodded about it, you say Israel isn't under any biblical command to restrain herself. It was a self-pious post, and it will be regarded as such.

If that's what you think then you are so off base it isn't even funny. There was nothing "self-pious" in my post and I never changed my position "when prodded." Christians are wrong to support this bombing campaign. That has been my position from the start.

Blessed are the peacemakers. Can't have bullies walking around calling all the shots.

Nonsense and you know it.

What part of "elimination of Israel" do you not understand ? Again, this isn't about prophecy.

What does prophecy have to do with anything? I never brought it up.

Yup. Israel is much better at this.

Never said they weren't better at killing people. That much is obvious.

Then lay off with the "you guys forgot the Sermon on the Mount" stuff.

No. Just because I don't have a solution, doesn't mean I shouldn't point out their error and our own sin in supporting the bloodshed. Also I never said, "you guys" anything.

Escalating the violence ? That's what's called "defense" now ? Again, what should Israel do ? Fire some rockets that miss their targets, as well ? Would that be a "proportional" response ?

Yes escalating the violence. I would say a multiday bombing campaign that has killed about 50 civilians is escalation of violence, is it not?

They were in a conversation you were having with me, and you gave no indication you were quoting someone else.

I don't understand; the post clearly showed I was quoting RevMitchell twice.

Also you still haven't given any response as to why you implied I am lying or even what I'm supposedly lying about. That just baffles me.

 

[Judith]

:tear:

I saw today that over 100 people are already dead due to the Israeli strikes. About 1/4 of which are children.

And people wonder where terrorists come from??

Yes they come from the fathers and mothers that teach them to murder other people without provication. In this casae Hamas.

 

[Judith]

What's the death toll from the Gaza rocket attacks again?



I'm not saying Israel should just chill out and let them fire rockets at their cities, but to respond like this is flat out wrong. It is immoral aggression, not defensive. And the blanket support Christians are giving to this is sickening. I guess we've collectively forgotten the Sermon on the Mount.

Whay is wrong is that Isreal has used your philophy in the past and this is why thye are threatened today. You do not wait until the other side gets a huge kill number before you do all you can to shut them down an dif thta means their children die insted of your own so be it.

 

[Judith]

What would be a Christian response to Gaza's rockets ?

Mine would be a small nuclear bomb to end their misery.

 

[RLBosley]

Yes they come from the fathers and mothers that teach them to murder other people without provication. In this casae Hamas.

Some do, sure, others are radicalized, as they grow up, by extremest leaders. But you can't honestly say that is the only way people become terrorists. I have a VERY hard time believing that's even a majority.

Mine would be a small nuclear bomb to end their misery.

Joke??

 

[Judith]

Some do, sure, others are radicalized, as they grow up, by extremest leaders. But you can't honestly say that is the only way people become terrorists. I have a VERY hard time believing that's even a majority.



Joke??

No Joke. If you come at my children with a club or a knife I have no problem shooting you with a really big shotgun. If you lob rockets into my country I have no problem dropping a nuclear bomb on you. The idea is not to play at another's level. The idea is to end the attack and make sure it never happens again.

 

[RLBosley]

No Joke. If you come at my children with a club or a knife I have no problem shooting you with a really big shotgun. If you lob rockets into my country I have no problem dropping a nuclear bomb on you. The idea is not to play at another's level. The idea is to end the attack and make sure it never happens again.

I am really sorry to hear that.

Again, I don't expect a secular nation like Israel to respond in a Christian way. They aren't Christian and nations are permitted to bear the sword. But do you really think that using a nuclear weapon, to indiscriminately kill combatants and civilians alike, including children like your own, is consistent with the gospel?

I take it that if someone killed someone in your family you would want to kill them and their family?

Don't you see that that it never ends if violence is answered with violence? That was Jesus point, at least partially, in the garden.

 

[Revmitchell]

Hamas is not a victim. They are in fact terrorists and should be treated as such. They do not desire peace or recociliation. What they want is the whole sale destruction of all Jews. Period.

 

[just-want-peace]

RLB: "Don't you see that that it never ends if violence is answered with violence? That was Jesus point, at least partially, in the garden."

With this "defense"(???), after WWII, the world would be divided between speaking Japanese or German.

Is that what you would have called a "CHRISTIAN RESPONSE"???

Just for the record, how far would an intruder in your home have to go in torturing your wife/husband or kids have to go for you to decide to retaliate??

Not a trick question; my interpretation is that all you would be willing to do is keep him from hurting your family and then let him go. Is my understanding correct????

For me the only acceptable END to such an affair would be that the intruder be TOTALLY neutralized, and we are now waiting for the police to come & arrest him.

TOTALLY NEUTRALIZED, is defined as him being 100% submissive to me, and he doesn't so much as sneeze w/o my permission. Should he continue to try to harm me/family, the "total neutralizing" may go so far as a bullet in the heart ------- his choice!!!

Remember that Jesus also told his disciples to "buy a sword" before they went on a journey. I seriously doubt the sword was of keeping their beards trimmed!?!?

 

[Revmitchell]

RLB: "Don't you see that that it never ends if violence is answered with violence? That was Jesus point, at least partially, in the garden."

Jesus never had war in view.

Violence never ends when people let them be treated violently. Fact is there are evil people in the world that only want violence(Hamas). If you want to end it then you must be stronger than them and put a stop to it and let them know it will not be tolerated. Period.


Anything else is just garbage.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm not saying Israel should just chill out and let them fire rockets at their cities, but to respond like this is flat out wrong. It is immoral aggression, not defensive. And the blanket support Christians are giving to this is sickening. I guess we've collectively forgotten the Sermon on the Mount.

Immoral aggression like the U.S. response to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?

 

[Revmitchell]

The "aggression" of Israel is defensive. It is defensive because it is only done after they were attacked and they are defedning themselves. Liberals have good intentions but their squirrly ideas fail in practice.

 

[Rolfe]

Exactly. As a independent government, Israel can bear the sword in its own defense if it is attacked. But to call this an appropriate defense is to truly have the head in the sand attitude.

I am curious. What would you consider an appropriate defense?