It is Finished

[John of Japan]

No, I don't. You are assuming.

I saw no other reason for the long and involved posts you are giving me. I haven't said that much to respond to.

You "puffed up" when I observed that your conclusion of what "it" meant is what you bring into the verse. I wss not saying that you would mistranslate the word (I believe that, to the best of your ability, you would be faithful to the text in any translation).

I "puffed up"? What does that even mean?

What I had asked you about was the word Τετέλεσται. I was asking if you knew of any instance where Τετέλεσται is used to speak of paying a debt. With the documents that are avaliable, especially dealing with taxes (Temple tax, Roman tax, tributes paid to the Seleucid Empire, etc.) I assumed you ran across Τετέλεσται being used to state a payment was made in full.

I said that I have not seen the word used in such a way, and to my knowledge it never was. But my experience is very limited (it is limited to the Bible and some Greek secular writings).

I studied Greek for only two years when I was in seminary. My focus was theology, especially historical theology, rather than language.

So I was asking an honest question. I took your response to be that having only a couple years of graduate level Greek (not enough to matter much, by my own admission) I do not have the right to know if Τετέλεσται has ever been used in the Greek language to mean "paid in full" and should just accept your authority.

All you had to say was that you took graduate level Greek and I would respect that. I wasn't getting that from your posts. But again, I've had my say and don't want to comment further on this thread. Can you respect that?

I'm working hard on a huge project and am trying not to post a lot here on the BB. That may or may not work.

I get that to a degree. Bible translators who are experts in ancient languages are rarely experts in theology. Theologians are rarely expert historians. Each discipline relies on another to a great degree. (I am not calling myself an expert, 6 yrs of theological education is nothing if the end result is to be a theologian.... just trying to stop another assumption I see coming).

I'm not one of them. I'm a missionary translator, not translating into English. Do you know any missionary translators? I deliberately took a couple more systematic theology courses than I needed to. Missionary translators absolutely need to know theology.

But I do not believe a biblical linguist would merely accept a doctrine based on the authority of a theologian.

So I do not believe my question is out of line. Even if I had never studied Greek (if the language was Greek to me) I think it was a reasonable question to ask.

Are there any instances where Τετέλεσται is used to mean "paid in full"?

 

[JonC]

I saw no other reason for the long and involved posts you are giving me. I haven't said that much to respond to.

I "puffed up"? What does that even mean?

All you had to say was that you took graduate level Greek and I would respect that. I wasn't getting that from your posts. But again, I've had my say and don't want to comment further on this thread. Can you respect that?

I'm working hard on a huge project and am trying not to post a lot here on the BB. That may or may not work.

I'm not one of them. I'm a missionary translator, not translating into English. Do you know any missionary translators? I deliberately took a couple more systematic theology courses than I needed to. Missionary translators absolutely need to know theology.

I was trying to cover a couple of issues. You did say that much.

By "puffed up" I mean "sticking your chest out". I asked a simple and honest question. Your reply was. "You don't know the Greek, do you? So don't speak authoritatively about it, please, as in 'The only reason....'"

Yes. I know Greek, but not well (hence me asking you the question).

Two years of graduate level Greek is informative but in the grand scheme of "knowing the Greek" it is vastly inferior. I would not say it qualifies as "knowing the Greek". That is why I clarified.

My response that the only reason to use "it is paid!" is to limit the ambiguous "it" to a specific position.

I can respect that you do not want to respond any more (this post is to answer your three questions...so I might as well address the rest).

I wish you the best on your project. I will not be responding much for a bit as I am going on vacation.

I do not know any missionary translators. My interest was never translation but theology - mainly historical theology. I enjoy learning how various theologies developed (some progressed, most regressed). So while I also took a lot of systematic theology classes, that was not my main focus.


All I really wanted to know is if you were aware of instances where Τετέλεσται referred to paying a debt. I was not asking you to research it. So I assume the answer is "no, not off hand".

 

[JonC]

I've had my say here, so I'll move on.

So you are done. Finished. Paid in full.

(Sorry...tried not to)

 

[percho]

I have to correct my own grammar. Τετέλεσται is actually a passive, so there would be no direct object. However, there is no stated nominative noun (subject), so Christ's statement is ambiguous. This does not affect my interpretation. A translator may render whatever subject in English he or she believes fits the context, or just leave it at "It...," the most literal rendering. So, "It is paid" or "It is finished." Either way," once must interpret what is paid or finished, since that is not in the text.

I know no Greek.

It is finished refers back to the all [nominative] of verse 28 Which Jesus said because of what Matt 27:46 states; God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus has just been made to be sin, all our sins have been laid upon him. When God created Adam he created him, of the flesh sold under sin. How do I know this, because, Adam was the last of the creation God then rested. However at that moment according to Romans 8:20 the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

The wages of the sin are about to be paid. I thirst, it is finished, Father into your hands I commit the spirit of me.

In hope. The Father just redeemed man created in his image. Bought him back. 1 Cor 6:19,20

That is my understanding of, it is finished.

 

[John of Japan]

By "puffed up" I mean "sticking your chest out". I asked a simple and honest question. Your reply was. "You don't know the Greek, do you? So don't speak authoritatively about it, please, as in 'The only reason....'"

Don't know what "sticking your chest out" is either.

I wish you the best on your project. I will not be responding much for a bit as I am going on vacation.

Thank you. Have a great vacation.

I do not know any missionary translators. My interest was never translation but theology - mainly historical theology. I enjoy learning how various theologies developed (some progressed, most regressed). So while I also took a lot of systematic theology classes, that was not my main focus.

So then you can't say that Bible translators don't know theology, can you. Then there is D. A. Carson, who does both quite well.

I know many missionary translators, and all are competent in theology.

All I really wanted to know is if you were aware of instances where Τετέλεσται referred to paying a debt. I was not asking you to research it. So I assume the answer is "no, not off hand".

That is the answer.

 

[John of Japan]

I know no Greek.

It is finished refers back to the all [nominative] of verse 28 Which Jesus said because of what Matt 27:46 states; God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus has just been made to be sin, all our sins have been laid upon him. When God created Adam he created him, of the flesh sold under sin. How do I know this, because, Adam was the last of the creation God then rested. However at that moment according to Romans 8:20 the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

The wages of the sin are about to be paid. I thirst, it is finished, Father into your hands I commit the spirit of me.

In hope. The Father just redeemed man created in his image. Bought him back. 1 Cor 6:19,20

That is my understanding of, it is finished.

So, not the atonement being finished?

 

[JonC]

Don't know what "sticking your chest out" is either.

Thank you. Have a great vacation.

So then you can't say that Bible translators don't know theology, can you. Then there is D. A. Carson, who does both quite well.

I know many missionary translators, and all are competent in theology.

That is the answer.

I never once said that Bible translators do not know theology. I would expect they all do. Your introduction of the thought they may not is a bit worrisome.

That said, I would hope that many translators did not spend decades studying how different theologies developed while the better translators were studying biblical language and the worldviews of the people who used those languages. I get being a jack of all trades, but trust the masters of their chosen vocation a bit more with several topics.

Thanks. That was my answer as well.