It is Finished

[John of Japan]

No, I don't. You are assuming.

I saw no other reason for the long and involved posts you are giving me. I haven't said that much to respond to.

You "puffed up" when I observed that your conclusion of what "it" meant is what you bring into the verse. I wss not saying that you would mistranslate the word (I believe that, to the best of your ability, you would be faithful to the text in any translation).

I "puffed up"? What does that even mean?

What I had asked you about was the word Τετέλεσται. I was asking if you knew of any instance where Τετέλεσται is used to speak of paying a debt. With the documents that are avaliable, especially dealing with taxes (Temple tax, Roman tax, tributes paid to the Seleucid Empire, etc.) I assumed you ran across Τετέλεσται being used to state a payment was made in full.

I said that I have not seen the word used in such a way, and to my knowledge it never was. But my experience is very limited (it is limited to the Bible and some Greek secular writings).

I studied Greek for only two years when I was in seminary. My focus was theology, especially historical theology, rather than language.

So I was asking an honest question. I took your response to be that having only a couple years of graduate level Greek (not enough to matter much, by my own admission) I do not have the right to know if Τετέλεσται has ever been used in the Greek language to mean "paid in full" and should just accept your authority.

All you had to say was that you took graduate level Greek and I would respect that. I wasn't getting that from your posts. But again, I've had my say and don't want to comment further on this thread. Can you respect that?

I'm working hard on a huge project and am trying not to post a lot here on the BB. That may or may not work.

I get that to a degree. Bible translators who are experts in ancient languages are rarely experts in theology. Theologians are rarely expert historians. Each discipline relies on another to a great degree. (I am not calling myself an expert, 6 yrs of theological education is nothing if the end result is to be a theologian.... just trying to stop another assumption I see coming).

I'm not one of them. I'm a missionary translator, not translating into English. Do you know any missionary translators? I deliberately took a couple more systematic theology courses than I needed to. Missionary translators absolutely need to know theology.

But I do not believe a biblical linguist would merely accept a doctrine based on the authority of a theologian.

So I do not believe my question is out of line. Even if I had never studied Greek (if the language was Greek to me) I think it was a reasonable question to ask.

Are there any instances where Τετέλεσται is used to mean "paid in full"?

 

[JonC]

I saw no other reason for the long and involved posts you are giving me. I haven't said that much to respond to.

I "puffed up"? What does that even mean?

All you had to say was that you took graduate level Greek and I would respect that. I wasn't getting that from your posts. But again, I've had my say and don't want to comment further on this thread. Can you respect that?

I'm working hard on a huge project and am trying not to post a lot here on the BB. That may or may not work.

I'm not one of them. I'm a missionary translator, not translating into English. Do you know any missionary translators? I deliberately took a couple more systematic theology courses than I needed to. Missionary translators absolutely need to know theology.

I was trying to cover a couple of issues. You did say that much.

By "puffed up" I mean "sticking your chest out". I asked a simple and honest question. Your reply was. "You don't know the Greek, do you? So don't speak authoritatively about it, please, as in 'The only reason....'"

Yes. I know Greek, but not well (hence me asking you the question).

Two years of graduate level Greek is informative but in the grand scheme of "knowing the Greek" it is vastly inferior. I would not say it qualifies as "knowing the Greek". That is why I clarified.

My response that the only reason to use "it is paid!" is to limit the ambiguous "it" to a specific position.

I can respect that you do not want to respond any more (this post is to answer your three questions...so I might as well address the rest).

I wish you the best on your project. I will not be responding much for a bit as I am going on vacation.

I do not know any missionary translators. My interest was never translation but theology - mainly historical theology. I enjoy learning how various theologies developed (some progressed, most regressed). So while I also took a lot of systematic theology classes, that was not my main focus.


All I really wanted to know is if you were aware of instances where Τετέλεσται referred to paying a debt. I was not asking you to research it. So I assume the answer is "no, not off hand".

 

[JonC]

I've had my say here, so I'll move on.

So you are done. Finished. Paid in full.

(Sorry...tried not to)

 

[percho]

I have to correct my own grammar. Τετέλεσται is actually a passive, so there would be no direct object. However, there is no stated nominative noun (subject), so Christ's statement is ambiguous. This does not affect my interpretation. A translator may render whatever subject in English he or she believes fits the context, or just leave it at "It...," the most literal rendering. So, "It is paid" or "It is finished." Either way," once must interpret what is paid or finished, since that is not in the text.

I know no Greek.

It is finished refers back to the all [nominative] of verse 28 Which Jesus said because of what Matt 27:46 states; God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus has just been made to be sin, all our sins have been laid upon him. When God created Adam he created him, of the flesh sold under sin. How do I know this, because, Adam was the last of the creation God then rested. However at that moment according to Romans 8:20 the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

The wages of the sin are about to be paid. I thirst, it is finished, Father into your hands I commit the spirit of me.

In hope. The Father just redeemed man created in his image. Bought him back. 1 Cor 6:19,20

That is my understanding of, it is finished.

 

[John of Japan]

By "puffed up" I mean "sticking your chest out". I asked a simple and honest question. Your reply was. "You don't know the Greek, do you? So don't speak authoritatively about it, please, as in 'The only reason....'"

Don't know what "sticking your chest out" is either.

I wish you the best on your project. I will not be responding much for a bit as I am going on vacation.

Thank you. Have a great vacation.

I do not know any missionary translators. My interest was never translation but theology - mainly historical theology. I enjoy learning how various theologies developed (some progressed, most regressed). So while I also took a lot of systematic theology classes, that was not my main focus.

So then you can't say that Bible translators don't know theology, can you. Then there is D. A. Carson, who does both quite well.

I know many missionary translators, and all are competent in theology.

All I really wanted to know is if you were aware of instances where Τετέλεσται referred to paying a debt. I was not asking you to research it. So I assume the answer is "no, not off hand".

That is the answer.

 

[John of Japan]

I know no Greek.

It is finished refers back to the all [nominative] of verse 28 Which Jesus said because of what Matt 27:46 states; God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus has just been made to be sin, all our sins have been laid upon him. When God created Adam he created him, of the flesh sold under sin. How do I know this, because, Adam was the last of the creation God then rested. However at that moment according to Romans 8:20 the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

The wages of the sin are about to be paid. I thirst, it is finished, Father into your hands I commit the spirit of me.

In hope. The Father just redeemed man created in his image. Bought him back. 1 Cor 6:19,20

That is my understanding of, it is finished.

So, not the atonement being finished?

 

[JonC]

Don't know what "sticking your chest out" is either.

Thank you. Have a great vacation.

So then you can't say that Bible translators don't know theology, can you. Then there is D. A. Carson, who does both quite well.

I know many missionary translators, and all are competent in theology.

That is the answer.

I never once said that Bible translators do not know theology. I would expect they all do, to varying degrees depending on their expertise. I hope translators include those who specialize in biblical language, ancient history, biblical theology and systematic theology.

Thanks. That was my answer as well.

 

[JonC]

Christ offeting Him as a sacrifice for atonement was accomplished. On the cross God was reconciling mankind to Himself, not taking into account their sin. This is why we urge men to be reconciled to God.

But our atonement? Obviously this was not finished on the cross. To borrow from the OT sin offering, the sacrifice is made, the blood is shed, the priest makes atonement for the sins of the people by applying the blood.

The Atoning Sacrifice was offered in obedience. Through His own blood the High Priest entered the Most High Place not made with human hands. He is set forth as a propitiation through His blood. What is left? The blood that cleanses from all unrighteousness must be applied, must be received by faith.

 

[percho]

So, not the atonement being finished?

When, My God My God why hast thou forsaken Me, the Son being made sin for us, took place that brought forth the blood [life] being given [ in death] for the atonement of our souls.


My God My God why hast thou forsaken Me, I thirst, it is finished, Father into your hands I commit the spirit of me.

When I think about I believe all of the above transpired in just a few seconds say minute to minute and a half of the time it takes to read it and therefore would constitute, the atonement.

From being forsaken unto the death.

 

[JonC]

When, My God My God why hast thou forsaken Me, the Son being made sin for us, took place that brought forth the blood [life] being given [ in death] for the atonement of our souls.


My God My God why hast thou forsaken Me, I thirst, it is finished, Father into your hands I commit the spirit of me.

When I think about I believe all of the above transpired in just a few seconds say minute to minute and a half of the time it takes to read it and therefore would constitute, the atonement.

From being forsaken unto the death.

I think the distinction would be where we see the atonement taking place. Is it the act "that brought forth the blood [life] being given [ in death] for the atonement of our souls" or the actual reconciliation taking place (that blood given [in death] for our atonement being applied to effect actual atonement).

What I mean is, we are not born reconciled to God. We are born in need of reconciliation (we need the atonement to be applied, the blood to cleans us from all unrighteousness).

If I look at the OT, there is a point where the sacrifice of atonement is offered, the blood is shed, but atonement is not yet made for the people. The priest takes the blood and "makes atonement for the sins of the people".

So I see (there are other ways of seeing it) the cross as God setting forth His Son as a propitiation through His blood. But for our individual atonement (reconciliation) to take place this must be received by faith.

 

[John of Japan]

When, My God My God why hast thou forsaken Me, the Son being made sin for us, took place that brought forth the blood [life] being given [ in death] for the atonement of our souls.


My God My God why hast thou forsaken Me, I thirst, it is finished, Father into your hands I commit the spirit of me.

When I think about I believe all of the above transpired in just a few seconds say minute to minute and a half of the time it takes to read it and therefore would constitute, the atonement.

From being forsaken unto the death.

I agree. I am mystified that someone would think anything other than the blood atonement of Christ was being finished.

 

[JonC]

I agree. I am mystified that someone would think anything other than the blood atonement of Christ was being finished.

I am as well. Scripture tells us specifically that God was reconciling mankind to Himself, and setting Christ forward as an atoning sacrifice through His blood.

To be fair, I do not think that any Christian doctrine denies this. I have not heard of any, and I do not know if it existed that it could be called "Christian".

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree. I am mystified that someone would think anything other than the blood atonement of Christ was being finished.

I think there are a few other things that were being finished, fulfilled, accomplished etc.
1. All the prophecies concerning our Lord before His death were fulfilled. The last one was Psalm 69:21b (c.f. John 19:28).
2. We see the completion of His sufferings. The cup has been drained to the very dregs.
3. The goal of the Incarnation has been reached (Matt. 1:21; John 18:37; 1 Tim. 1:15).
4. It is the end of all our sins (Isaiah 53:6; Gal. 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24).
5. It is the fulfilment of the law's requirements (Matt. 5:17; Rom. 8:3-4; 10:4; Gal. 4:4-5).
6. It is the destruction of the power of the devil (John 12:31; Heb. 2:14; Rev. 12:10).
7. It is the accomplishment of the Atonement. I know you effectively wrote that, but I wanted to find a seventh 'thing.'

 

[37818]

Simple. I am of the persuasion the atonement on the cross was completed prior to John 19:28, . . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . . .

 

[JonC]

Simple. I am of the persuasion the atonement on the cross was completed prior to John 19:28, . . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . . .

What do you believe John 19:28 was speaking of being accomplished?

 

[JonC]

I think there are a few other things that were being finished, fulfilled, accomplished etc.
1. All the prophecies concerning our Lord before His death were fulfilled. The last one was Psalm 69:21b (c.f. John 19:28).
2. We see the completion of His sufferings. The cup has been drained to the very dregs.
3. The goal of the Incarnation has been reached (Matt. 1:21; John 18:37; 1 Tim. 1:15).
4. It is the end of all our sins (Isaiah 53:6; Gal. 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24).
5. It is the fulfilment of the law's requirements (Matt. 5:17; Rom. 8:3-4; 10:4; Gal. 4:4-5).
6. It is the destruction of the power of the devil (John 12:31; Heb. 2:14; Rev. 12:10).
7. It is the accomplishment of the Atonement. I know you effectively wrote that, but I wanted to find a seventh 'thing.'

I agree with one exception (I am not sure what you mean by "the end of all our sins" as we have sinned and needed to be forgiven).

I think that the easiest way to say this is Jesus fulfilled Scripture, from the Incarnation to the atoning sacrifice in His own blood.

And I get the wanting to find another. Once we get to six we just have to go to seven.

 

[37818]

.

What do you believe John 19:28 was speaking of being accomplished?

Psalm 22:1, Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34, was passed, having being done.

No longer being forsaken of His Father, Luke 23:46, And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

 

[John of Japan]

I think there are a few other things that were being finished, fulfilled, accomplished etc.
1. All the prophecies concerning our Lord before His death were fulfilled. The last one was Psalm 69:21b (c.f. John 19:28).
2. We see the completion of His sufferings. The cup has been drained to the very dregs.
3. The goal of the Incarnation has been reached (Matt. 1:21; John 18:37; 1 Tim. 1:15).
4. It is the end of all our sins (Isaiah 53:6; Gal. 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24).
5. It is the fulfilment of the law's requirements (Matt. 5:17; Rom. 8:3-4; 10:4; Gal. 4:4-5).
6. It is the destruction of the power of the devil (John 12:31; Heb. 2:14; Rev. 12:10).
7. It is the accomplishment of the Atonement. I know you effectively wrote that, but I wanted to find a seventh 'thing.'

All of this is true, but there was only one thing fulfilled when Jesus said "It is finished." The verb was 3rd person singular, not plural, so Jesus had only one thing in mind when He made that statement on the cross.

 

[JonC]

.
Psalm 22:1, Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34, was passed, having being done.

No longer being forsaken of His Father, Luke 23:46, And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Yes. But I believe this applies to the Atonement in a theological sense (Christ's completed work, from the Incarnation to the atoning blood shed for us). This includes being forsaken to suffer on the cross. It was done, once for all.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

All of this is true, but there was only one thing fulfilled when Jesus said "It is finished." The verb was 3rd person singular, not plural, so Jesus had only one thing in mind when He made that statement on the cross.

I understand that, but if we summarize the purpose of God in the history of man, what do we come to? Maybe this: to display His grace and to magnify His Son in the creating of Children in His own image and glory. That one purpose had multiple parts, and it was all completed at the cross.