I've never known a Calvinist...

[Frenchy]

Let's look at this verse alone

21:4
An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

The best thing a man can do for his family is to provide for it. Back then men PLOWED the fields to provide food. Here this verse is saying that even the "good works" of someone who isn't saved, is sinful or evil. the only righteousness that will count is God's. man in his inate nature is SELFISH, even the motivations of say someone like Oprah may be well intended, but deep down they are trying to fulfilling an area that only God can fill. so it becomes a selfish motive.look at me see all the good i have done? even as christians the only good that we do that will COUNT in heaven (rewards and crowns) will only be that which was done THROUGH Christ and the Holy Spirit and not our flesh.

 

[Frenchy]

by the way Helen I have been saved over 23 years and this calvinism thing is very new to me, actually just this year after going through a John Macarthur study on election. to tell you the truth this was a subject i never really thought much of. I guess before i was taught foreknowlege, it just wasn't something that preached on in our church.

after looking at ALL the scriptures i have presented on other threads, there is no way i cannot believe that when God said he CHOSE us before the foundations of the world not based on us but for his good pleasure and purpose i have to believe he meant what he said. over 20 verses point to this fact.

 

[russell55]

I am stunned. Don't any of you talk to people in other religions?

Of course, but what they tell us has to be filtered through the lense of scripture, does it not?

Doctors will operate for hours on a difficult case for free to help someone out -- they need not be Christians.

Of course. But are they doing it from faith, for the glory of God? If not, then while it is a social or civil good act, it is not a spiritually good act. And that's the standard that counts in God's eyes.

How on earth can you love your neighbor as yourselves when you think so poorly of him?

I love my neighbor because I know that he is exactly the same as I am--in need of God's grace.

 

[Ransom]

Helen said:

I am stunned. Don't any of you talk to people in other religions? Don't you read where non-Christian will sacrifice of themselves to help others?

Once again, Helen tries to trump Scripture with her experiences.

 

[Frenchy]

How on earth can you love your neighbor as yourselves when you think so poorly of him?

What a stupid comment who's say we think so poorly of our neighbors? I do not know who God has chosen to be saved at all. it is not my job to worry or wonder who is going to be saved. it is my job to be faithful and to witness knowing that God knows and he will draw those he choses to draw. I am just his tool he is the master.

 

[J.D.]

Originally posted by Helen:
I am stunned. Don't any of you talk to people in other religions? Don't you read where non-Christian will sacrifice of themselves to help others? It happens. There are people who honestly want what is good for others. Mothers do that all the time. Husbands will love their wives more than themselves even though they are not Christian. Doctors will operate for hours on a difficult case for free to help someone out -- they need not be Christians.

People know good. And a good many of them want what is good for others as well as for themselves. I am stunned at what Calvinism has done to you folks. How on earth can you love your neighbor as yourselves when you think so poorly of him?

Helen, what you are describing is called HUMANISM. It may be Christian Humanism, but it is humanism just the same. And I am stunned just how far out of step with the Bible you really are. I'm say that now out of concern.

If I love children instead of hating them, it doesn't mean I'm spiritual - it just means I'm HUMAN. If I love puppies and kitties and if I pity the poor and sick - what does it all mean? It means I'm HUMAN. Some people can become INHUMAN in their depravity, it's true, but nevertheless, by far most of us, before we are anything else, are human.

You really should take some time and study a good theology. I recommend the Manual of Theology by J.L. Dagg. It's available on the internet - just google it. The reason he comes to mind is because I remember when reading the very first chapter how it informed and cleared my mind of the nature of the natural order and how it fits into God's scheme.

And perhaps you've been influenced by the social gospel which says that the sum of the Christian religion is not in its worship and doctrines, but in its effects on society as a whole. The social gospel is a false gospel, much like the gospel of self-esteem. The gospel is not about my self, other society, but it is about regeneration and redemption through the Godhead.

 

[J.D.]

BTW Dagg's theology is easier to read than most and it's much shorter than most.

 

[Helen]

Humanism states that humans are intrinsically good naturally. I do not subscribe to that at all. But humans know how to recognize good and can desire good for others as well as themselves. What I am seeing in many of the Calvinists here are hearts that are incredibly hardened toward other people.

The Bible tells people to seek God. They all understand what that means, regardless of whether they want to do it or not. Jesus said the following:

"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, ow much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"
Matthew 7:9-11

So I guess you would define Jesus as a humanist, too????

 

[J.D.]

Helen said "What I am seeing in many of the Calvinists here are hearts that are incredibly hardened toward other people."

Helen, that's a personal slam that has no part in a theological debate. Bro Ruben has left us because you personalized an issue with him and now he's too embarrassed to engage in the dialogue.

How can you say something like that? Who among us is not touched with grief? You mistake our confidence in our theology as a lack of passion and compassion.

You should read the book Valley of Vision. It is a collection of prayers and poems written by the PURITANS. You know, those puritannical, legalistic, woman-beating, baby-hating witch burners? It's some of the most beautiful and inspiring adorations of God ever written.

But you continue to project some boogy-man image onto calvinists that comes from somewhere in your mind. Let's reason together.

 

[Helen]

JD, I'm sorry about Ruben, but I was not the one who jumped all over him for what he said -- about six or seven others did. I was the one who said it was finished, remember?

Now, was Jesus a humanist because of what He said about the evil people knowing how to give good gifts?

Nor is saying I see hardened hearts a personal slam unless you count yourself in that group. I said 'many', not 'all.' And what I was referring to was one of the fruits of the tree of Calvinistic teaching. Ref. Matthew 7:17-20.

I have seen mocking from the Calvinists here, the intentional twisting of words and meanings, not only of the Bible but of others who disagree with them, including me, and a hardness toward a hurt and dying world which truly grieves me. I'm not 'projecting' anything. I am commenting on what I have seen here on Baptist Board.

 

[Frenchy]

Sorry Helen J.D.'s right!

By the way you do not know my heart, i care about those who are saved and unsaved. my husband and I probably witness to more people than you think we do and i know so do others who lean towards Calvinism

 

[Frenchy]

Now, was Jesus a humanist because of what He said about the evil people knowing how to give good gifts?

you forgot the part that say "to their children"

what decent parent wouldn't?

i see you stopped debating me...why not, can't exactly argue with God's truths

 

[Helen]

In other words, you can be a 'decent' parent without being born again, right? Can you also be a 'decent' spouse, citizen, professional?

That really does go against the concept of 'totally depraved.'

 

[J.D.]

The doctrine of total depravity does not teach that every man is as bad as he could be. But man is bad universally. There are none righteous, no, not one. Every man is a rebel at heart, until God changes him.

I think you know that. I'm sure others on this blog has covered this with you. You enjoy the little circle of logic you run in, don't you?

 

[Frenchy]

yes Helen you can, but again it goes back to the old sin nature that most people are self centered.

I do not know too many relationships where the spouse or the parent isn't downright self centered, even christian ones. parents who give their children everything never holding them accountable for their own actions and sin, are being self centered because they are not looking out for their childs best interest but their own. it is too much work to get off their rear ends to dsiciplne, it is too much work to make children work around the house so they learn how it is in the real wrold, it is too much work to teach them not everything will be handed to them.

when it comes to it God's word is correct, when it says that mans true nature is sinfull, man doesn't naturally seek after God or the well being of others. if that were true Jesus wouldn't have had to say "the greatest commandement is to LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and the second is like it. LOVE your Neighbor as YOURSELF!"

why because man loves himself more than God and others!

 

[Helen]

Every man is a rebel at heart, until God changes him

I have no disagreement here. But our disagreement is in whether every man is incapable of responding to the good and the true until and unless God does the changing first. I think the above part of the discussion about 'decency' says very plainly that a man can desire the good and the true even when he cannot achieve it on his own. And that is the crux of free will -- what you want, not what you can achieve.

Frenchy, witnessing is not loving per se. Paul deals with something like this in 1 Cor. 13: if you say something without love, you are only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. Telling someone about Christ and loving them with the love of Christ pouring through you are two different things. Few respond to the first. Almost everyone responds to the second. "Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." And that is not in regard to oneself, is it? So that means that you always hope for your neighbor, always protect, always persevere, always trust. The trust, for me, is in God, but the hope is for my neighbor, and so is the protection and the persevering in caring.

Then they ask questions. And then I am ready to answer. And I always pray their free choice will be to say yes to God, for I know that God has left them free to decide for themselves. Or love would not be love.

 

[J.D.]

Spurgeon said that there's no such thing as an arminian prayer. Here's why he said that:

"And I always pray their free choice will be to say yes to God, for I know that God has left them free to decide for themselves"

Why do you pray for them if God has left them free to decide for themselves? Aren't you really praying that God would intervene, yea, even COERCE them to believe?

 

[Helen]

I don't care, first of all, what Spurgeon said! He is not Gospel.

God will not violate their free choice. He does not take His gifts back. But He will respond to prayers for the person. That may set up others in their lives to work with them, it may set up circumstances to encourage them toward the truth -- all I know is that prayer is efficaceous. It may change my heart toward the person and show me a different way of approach...

Whereas, with Calvinism, all is decided and God has already determined everything and so this is where prayer means what? I can't see that any true Calvinist would pray for anything, for all is already determined by God.

 

[Frenchy]

Frenchy, witnessing is not loving per se.

that isn't true, if you care about people you will have the desire to help them. you will have the disire to see and do what is best for them. the more love of God you have in your hearts, and are filled with the Holy Spirit the more you will be others centered. the nature outflow of being filled with the spirit are the fruits of the spirit. witnessing is a by product of being filled with the spirit.

still goes back to Prov. 21

Helen quote

And I always pray their free choice will be to say yes to God, for I know that God has left them free to decide for themselves. Or love would not be love.

I ALWAYS pray that God's WILL will be done and not mine or the persons free will

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Helen:
I am stunned. Don't any of you talk to people in other religions?j

Yes... Which partly shaped my response.

Don't you read where non-Christian will sacrifice of themselves to help others? It happens.

That isn't good enough. From the human perspective, it sounds very noble.

But it is sin to sacrifice one's self to a false cause based ultimately on worship of self, a human religion/philosophy/ideal, or an idol.

There are people who honestly want what is good for others. Mothers do that all the time. Husbands will love their wives more than themselves even though they are not Christian. Doctors will operate for hours on a difficult case for free to help someone out -- they need not be Christians.

Those things are all vain unless done in submission to God... they are sin.

People know good.

Again, no. A person's judgment of "good" is not equal to God's and is mutually exclusive for those who do not have His glory central to their concept of "good".

I am stunned at what Calvinism has done to you folks. How on earth can you love your neighbor as yourselves when you think so poorly of him?

The better questions are "How can we not recognizing his pitiful, hopeless, blindness?" and "How can arminians considering they deem man so capable and knowledgable of good... yet so wicked down to his very core?"

The heart of man is desparately wicked... and "Who can know it?"... not even the man himself knows the depth of that depravity- only God.

If one truly hates sin and truly believes that sinners capable of good... yet sin instead, how can you possibly love them?