Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized

[Dave G]

Your Lord and Savior was a first-century Palestinian Jew, of mixed African and Middle Eastern descent.

He is the Son of God, the word made flesh.
A "Jew" in the sense of being directly descended, in the flesh, from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

A member of the tribe of Judah and of the house of David.

What do the words "foreknow" and "foreknowledge" mean to you in Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:1-2?

The same as this:

" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." ( Jeremiah 1:5 ).

God "foreknew" a person in the same sense as Psalms 139 tells us...
It's the complete opposite of " I never knew you..." in Matthew 7:23;
"I never loved you".

God's love is a love in action, and that action was,
He sent a Saviour in the Person of His Son, who saved His people from their sins ( Matthew 1:21 ).

 

[Dave G]

I was able to humble myself before God and say that I didn't have all the answers, and that I would obey it if the reading of His Word revealed to me something other than Calvinism.

I admire you for your honesty.
Still, when I did the same as you and simply sat down and read it for myself, I gradually began to see the opposite.

The more that I completely ignored systematic theologies and blocked out other influences,
the more the words on the pages began to sink into my mind, and the more I began to see the truth of what is commonly called "Calvinism"...

At least in the "Five Points" now known as " T.U.L.I.P.".

It's a little unsettling that Calvinists, whether wittingly or unwittingly, take the side of the objector in Jeremiah 18 in their doctrines of total depravity and unconditional election.

Notwithstanding that the objector in Jeremiah 18 is the rebellious sinner described in Jeremiah 18:12, I don't see them doing that at all.

Rather, I see them taking the side of God ( for the most part ), and agreeing with Him when He point-blank tells His people that were it not for Him and His irresistible grace that is bestowed upon men ( through no conscious effort of their own ),
they would have never willingly chosen to obey Him...

Even if it meant their eternal damnation, torment and suffering in the Lake of Fire that burns forever and ever.


The above stated, I wish you well, @Humble Disciple ...
May God bless you with His wisdom and knowledge, and with many blessings as you live the days that the Lord has allotted to you in this life.

 

[Revmitchell]

Please keep in mind that I disproved Calvinism on my own, based on my reading of scripture alone, rather than of what anti-Calvinists have to say.

.

And now you must be destroyed. Calvinists cannot let that stand.

 

[AustinC]

The entire system of Calvinism stands or falls on its interpretation of Romans 9, on whether election is conditional or unconditional.





I was able to humble myself before God and say that I didn't have all the answers, and that I would obey it if the reading of His Word revealed to me something other than Calvinism.



At the same time, I will not stop going up to bat for Calvinists, as my brothers and sisters in Christ, when I feel they are being unfairly criticized.

Your first sentence is entirely false. It seems you have a week grasp of the doctrines of grace and are vacillating with no clear compass. That's fine, but stop imagining you are a spokesman for Reformed doctrine.

Election is before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1) and is solely by God's mysterious will, good and perfect in every way.

There is no need to "go to bat" for anyone here. We stand or fall on God's word.

 

[1689Dave]

My intent on this forum has not been to convince others that Calvinism is true, but only that they should be more tolerant of Calvinists, especially since some of history's greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists.

I have to plead ignorance on Romans 9, the scripture most cited by Calvinists to support their doctrine of unconditional election, because I didn't start reading the Book of Jeremiah until a few days ago.

When Paul uses the potter and clay analogy in Romans 9, it's unthinkable that Paul, as the Pharisee of Pharisees, didn't have Jeremiah 18 in mind:



As one can see, the potter makes Israel a vessel fit for destruction due to its free-willed choice to reject God. Otherwise, Jeremiah 18:12 doesn't make any logical sense, "That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart."

Calvinists, by insisting that humans have no free will whatsoever to obey God, not even to accept God's offer of salvation by faith alone through grace alone, are taking the side of the objector in Jeremiah 18:12.

The main disagreement that Arminians and Molinists have with Calvinism is whether or not God's grace is irresistible. While Calvinists insist that God's enabling grace is given only to the elect, without the possibility of rejecting it, Molinists and Arminians believe that God's enabling grace to believe the Gospel is given to all people equally, with the possibility of rejecting it. (John 12:32, John 15:26, John 16:8-11)

The most natural reading of Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:1-2, especially in light of Jeremiah 18:12, is that God's decision of election is based on His foreknowledge of who would accept God's free offer of grace and who wouldn't, and is thus conditional, not unconditional.

Free will = enslaved to Satan unless enslaved to God.

 

[kyredneck]

When did I say that Romans 9 is not about individuals?

Fourth paragraph of the OP:

As one can see, the potter makes Israel a vessel

It's common for anti-Sovereignty ilk to try make Ro 9 all about Israel's rejection of Christ. I merely pointed out to you the context is about individual vessels, 'not of the Jews only but also of the Gentiles', and NOTabout Israel, a vessel.

What do the words "foreknow" and "foreknowledge" mean to you in Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:1-2?

I 'foreknow' what's going to come up in my garden every year because I planted the seed.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I still regard John Piper as perhaps the greatest living preacher, and I'm not going to stop listening and stop respecting the same Calvinist preachers and theologians that I respected and listened to before.

The main point of contention between me and them would simply be whether or not God's decision in election is contingent upon foreseen faith, as Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:1-2 would suggest, especially in light of Jeremiah 18:12.

Another main disagreement that Arminians and Molinists have with Calvinism is whether or not God's grace is irresistible. While Calvinists insist that God's enabling grace is given only to the elect, without the possibility of rejecting it, Molinists and Arminians believe that God's enabling grace to believe the Gospel is given to all people equally, with the possibility of rejecting it. (John 12:32, John 15:26, John 16:8-11)

Molinists and Arminians, contrary to whatever John MacArthur might tell you, cannot be described as Palagean, because they agree with Calvinists that God's enabling (prevenient) grace is necessary to repent and believe the Gospel.

George Whitefield and John Wesley were able to accomplish great things together, as fellow Methodists, precisely because they were able to agree to disagree on predestination.

Winning souls for Christ should matter more than doctrinal differences that have nothing to do with the essentials of salvation. While the Bible itself is infallible, our particular interpretations are not, which is why it's good to hear from a variety of perspectives.

"IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY."

I accomplished everything I intended to accomplish in removing the blinders of anti-Calvinists, and now I'm doing the same for the other side, to the glory of God alone. Are we not all brothers and sisters in Christ?

 

[AustinC]

The main point of contention between me and them would simply be whether or not God's decision in election is contingent upon foreseen faith,as Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:1-2 would suggest, especially in light of Jeremiah 18:12.

Contingent upon...
You just made faith a work that God merits to the one who believes. It's the same error Van falls into. None of the verses you reference imply such a thing.

 

[robycop3]

Most of calvinism IS false, especially the parts about everyone being born predestinated. And mhere's why:

Jesus said in Matt. 10:32,“Therefore WHOEVER confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven."

He said in John 12:46,"I have come as a light into the world, that WHOEVER believes in Me should not abide in darkness."

Luke wrote in Acts 2:21,"And it shall come to pass That WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

He also wrote, in Acts 10:43, "
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, WHOEVER believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

And Paul wrote, in Romans 10:13,"For WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Not one "whoever if already elect" !

And PLEASE, don't anyone say they were preaching or writing to those already elect! Those verses simply don't say that!

And don't forget Jesus words in John 3:16-"WHOEVER believes..."

 

[Humble Disciple]

Arguments against Calvinism that aren't based on scripture alone don't work for me whatsoever.

Just saying that Calvinism calls into question God's character is not an argument, since none of us are born deserving of God's grace, and God can do whatever He pleases.

It was not until after reading Jeremiah 18 for myself, which is undoubtedly what Paul had in mind when he wrote Romans 9, that I was able to reject the doctrine of unconditional election.

The most natural reading of Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:1-2, especially in light of Jeremiah 18:12, is that God's decision of election is based on His foreknowledge of who would accept God's free offer of grace and who wouldn't, and is thus conditional, not unconditional.

 

[Iconoclast]

Arguments against Calvinism that aren't based on scripture alone don't work for me whatsoever.

Just saying that Calvinism calls into question God's character is not an argument, since none of us are born deserving of God's grace, and God can do whatever He pleases.

It was not until after reading Jeremiah 18 for myself, which is undoubtedly what Paul had in mind when he wrote Romans 9, that I was able to reject the doctrine of unconditional election.

The most natural reading of Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:1-2, especially in light of Jeremiah 18:12, is that God's decision of election is based on His foreknowledge of who would accept God's free offer of grace and who wouldn't, and is thus conditional, not unconditional.

You do not understand biblical foreknowledge....it is whom He did foreknow...not what He did foreknow.

 

[Iconoclast]

Most of calvinism IS false, especially the parts about everyone being born predestinated. And mhere's why:

Jesus said in Matt. 10:32,“Therefore WHOEVER confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven."

He said in John 12:46,"I have come as a light into the world, that WHOEVER believes in Me should not abide in darkness."

Luke wrote in Acts 2:21,"And it shall come to pass That WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

He also wrote, in Acts 10:43, "
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, WHOEVER believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

And Paul wrote, in Romans 10:13,"For WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Not one "whoever if already elect" !

And PLEASE, don't anyone say they were preaching or writing to those already elect! Those verses simply don't say that!

And don't forget Jesus words in John 3:16-"WHOEVER believes..."

This posts refutes nothing. It shows your understanding to be false, but you keep posting it anyway.

 

[Humble Disciple]

2 Timothy 2:20-21 provides another potter/clay analogy which directly cuts against the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9:

2 Timothy 2:20-21
In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

As one can see, in order to be a vessel for special purposes, you must cleanse yourself by accepting God's free offer of grace. It's not, according to 2 Timothy 2:20-21, due to unconditional election.

 

[Iconoclast]

And now you must be destroyed. Calvinists cannot let that stand.

Another drive by anti cal post...no mention of his dishonest posting, yeah another day, the same M.O.

 

[Iconoclast]

2 Timothy 2:20-21 provides another potter/clay analogy which directly cuts against the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9:

2 Timothy 2:20-21
In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

As one can see, in order to be a vessel for special purposes, you must cleanse yourself by accepting God's free offer of grace. It's not, according to 2 Timothy 2:20-21, due to unconditional election.

Your man-centered theology is coming through now...must have been hard for you to try and lay low for a couple of days, but you did not really get by....we spotted it early on.lol.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I posted this to the forum several weeks ago:

I have asked God to not make me a Calvinist if he doesn't want me to be a Calvinist. In the very least, I believe that God wants me to dispel myths about Calvinism, so that people will be relieved of their prejudice against Calvinists.

Since I am a Calvinist who believes in God’s irresistible grace, I accept that God will make me a provisionist, Arminian, or Molinist if He so chooses, according to His own glory and purposes. (Psalm 115:3, Psalm 135:6)

At the end of the day, your love for God is more important than the rightness of your theology:

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

If you are a Calvinist who believes in irresistible grace, then you must accept that God led me, through the reading of scripture, to ultimately reject the Calvinist understanding of unconditional election.

 

[AustinC]

I posted this to the forum several weeks ago:


If you are a Calvinist who believes in irresistible grace, then you must accept that God led me, through the reading of scripture, to ultimately reject the Calvinist understanding of unconditional election.

Certainly, like Romans 1, he has given you over to the schemes of men.

 

[Iconoclast]

Certainly, like Romans 1, he has given you over to the schemes of men.

Yeah being dishonest and deceitful are not really fruits of the Spirit.
Austin, have you ever made pretend you were someone else theologically to communicate what you believe?

 

[robycop3]

This posts refutes nothing. It shows your understanding to be false, but you keep posting it anyway.

I understand exactly what WHOEVER means; evidently, YOU don't, or wish to be deliberately obtuse while trying to support a false doctrine.

 

[AustinC]

Yeah being dishonest and deceitful are not really fruits of the Spirit.
Austin, have you ever made pretend you were someone else theologically to communicate what you believe?

No. I share scripture and clearly state what I believe. I don't attempt a wishy washy view that I don't believe in order to deceive. From the moment I came here I shared scripture as I believe it teaches. I rarely appeal to the thoughts of others, and instead appeal to scripture.