Jerry Walls wicked and profane question about God

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And that's the point I have poorly tried to convey to you. No one will be cheated in Judgment day. No one will be done wrong.

Jesus Christ not only gives God's Word to us humans; he is the Word. He is the true word─ultimate reality revealed in a Person. The Logos is God, distinguishable in thought yet not separable in fact. This was decreed at the First Council of Constantinople (381).

 

[SovereignGrace]

Jesus Christ not only gives God's Word to us humans; he is the Word. He is the true word─ultimate reality revealed in a Person. The Logos is God, distinguishable in thought yet not separable in fact. This was decreed at the First Council of Constantinople (381).

And how do we know about the Word, God the Son? Via the gospel, the good news of the Christ.

Now, we need to get back on topic before Iconoclast comes down on us, Benny Hinn style.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Nope. The gospel is found simply in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

I REALLY want to know why you put a 'funny' on this post. What is so funny about the gospel?

That's the thing about hardshellism. It routinely mocks the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinism invites the question. Some Calvinist who deny that they are hyper-Calvinist affirm determinism. This essentially mean that God, by His eternal decree, has arbitrarily decided from before creation to save some and to eternally damn the greater number to hell. But not only this but everything that comes to pass is unchangeaby destined to occur by His design. So when Jeffrey Dommer ate his boyfriends, that was part of that design.

I think Calvinists should be honest and own the implications of their own doctrines.

John Wesley was right when he said Calvinism portrays God as more evil than Satan.

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Hello bluejx,
So in your world things take place that your god has no control over? Is your god reduced to being a spectator? Explain how the events unfold in your universe.
You are part of the blame God for mans sin crowd?

 

[Iconoclast]

Where's the link?

#forkitover

The link is an interview done by the failed Leighton Flowers...on his nifty little site that he opened up after he was a no show at the rom9 debate.
I hesitated to post it because I did not want to be partaker of the evil deed.

 

[Iconoclast]

Doesn't compare to the insult Calvinist say all the time. Calvinist are SHOCKED and SURPRISED God would save anyone.

The insult is Calvinist expect God to forgive no one.

Its just so shocking! God is halfways merciful when one expected God to be merciless.


Can't think of a better way to call God a Jerk then how Calvinist do it.

When salvation comes to town people see things differently.
The profane thoughts will leave you.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don’t know, you tell me!

Does God... take a human being, entombed them in inability, punish them on this earth, then send them to hell?

Are you blaming God for man's sin also....what do you mean entombed them in inability? Did adam sin in the garden or was it God?

 

[Iconoclast]

I think he swings and misses quite a bit.

It is not a swing and a miss. It is a general statement suggesting something about the unseen work of the Spirit convicting sinners....so he and others put such things forth.
This got pulled out of the hat to deflect from the foul speech made by Jerry Walls.....have not seen any eager to address his statements....no...not one.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvin was not a 5 point Calvinist.

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This is not the subject of this thread is it?
Try and focus....

 

[Reformed]

I don’t know, you tell me!

Does God... take a human being, entombed them in inability, punish them on this earth, then send them to hell?

You are asking a question that does not have a simple, clear verse to respond with. That is one of the reasons this question is asked so often. Our Particular Baptist brethren in the 17th-century were asked that question and responded in a reasoned manner:

1689 LBC 10.3 Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

Ephesians 1:4 tells us, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him." So, we know that God predestined His elect since before Creation. The normal means of salvation is the preaching and hearing of the Gospel (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21). What about those who are unable to hear the normal means? The framers of the 1689 LBC viewed that as the merciful work of the Holy Spirit towards the Elect; even those who seem to be beyond the ability to hear and believe.

Ultimately answers on both sides of this question are unsatisfying from a human perspective. Would it not be nice to have a verse that addressed the issue plainly? Alas, that is not the case. We must trust in God's goodness and mercy and take care not to assign to Him evil or of being capricious.

 

[Reynolds]

It is not a swing and a miss. It is a general statement suggesting something about the unseen work of the Spirit convicting sinners....so he and others put such things forth.
This got pulled out of the hat to deflect from the foul speech made by Jerry Walls.....have not seen any eager to address his statements....no...not one.

I have not listened to the speech. If you say its foul, I take your word for it. I, as a rule, don't like listening to those who hold extreme views on Cal or on non/cal. Both ends of the spectrum have a habit of being nasty.
As a note, I don't consider J.Mac to be extreme or nasty. I see him as middle ground. He says quite a few things that hard core Calvinists should disagree with him on. I have one of his books about leading kids to Christ. If you blacked out the authors name, you would swear a Classical Arminian wrote it.

 

[Reynolds]

Look Brother, I was conditioned my whole life, by well meaning ppl, to believe that as soon as a baby died, it was ushered into heaven. There would be rejoicing in that, that innocent baby had never sinned, died sinless(when the Christ is the only sinless One who died), and was welcomed into the joys of the Lord. Now, I was also conditioned to believe the doctrine of Original Sin to be false. I trusted these well meaning ppl for years, seeing I was taught this at home, and then later in the churches I attended.. We were not raised in a Christian home, but we were taught about who God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were.

So, if Original Sin is true, and I believe it is, all mankind fell, being in Adam, as he was our Federal Head. Now, out of all Adam's posterity, God chose a # that no one can #, and He gave their sins to Him to atone for. We do not know who the elect are, so that is why we preach the gospel to every one we can.

As for babies, that is a subject I can not give you a definite answer on. I know you lost a child in infancy, and I am truly sorry that that happened. But I can't say one way or the other. I do know that all who the Father gave to His Son to redeem, will be redeemed. Not one more, not one less.

I mostly agree with you in that I think we try to definitively answer questions that The Bible simply leaves unanswered. I believe in original sin, but I do not believe in the application of that guilt of that sin until there has come some degree of a knowledge of The Law.

 

[James Otto]

My greatest confusion over the issue of Calvinism extends from several issues . . .
1. By their fruits you shall know them . . . - I have difficulty with Calvin's actions and thus find him hard to trust
2. Limited atonement . . . Where does the Bible support that?
3, Irresistible predestination . . . Why would Jesus issue the Great Commission if this premise were true?

There are others, but I don't want to open too many issues at once.

 

[Reynolds]

My greatest confusion over the issue of Calvinism extends from several issues . . .
1. By their fruits you shall know them . . . - I have difficulty with Calvin's actions and thus find him hard to trust
2. Limited atonement . . . Where does the Bible support that?
3, Irresistible predestination . . . Why would Jesus issue the Great Commission if this premise were true?

There are others, but I don't want to open too many issues at once.

As for point 1, "Calvinism" predates Calvin.
Point 2 is for the most point merely a terminology issue. Point 3, irresistable grace, would be where Classical Rrminians and Cals differ.

 

[bluejx]

Hello bluejx,
So in your world things take place that your god has no control over? Is your god reduced to being a spectator? Explain how the events unfold in your universe.
You are part of the blame God for mans sin crowd?

To be clear, Iconoclast, I don't believe God is to blame for man's sin. My position is that if Calvinists teach God exercises control to the extent some of you Calvinists believe then logically God would necessarily be the author and perpetruator of sin and missery. I find it incogrous that you guys absolve God of what you accuse Him.

In fact, the question you call profane bases it's query on the propositions of Calvinism.

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[InTheLight]

Well, anyone who says we could attain sinless perfection is a goofball. If I averred it, I'd be a goofball.

Have you had any interactions with Dave1689?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[Iconoclast]

Where's the link?

#forkitover

...view with caution

 

[Iconoclast]

"James Otto,

Welcome to BB...

My greatest confusion over the issue of Calvinism extends from several issues .

. .
Asking questions and interacting is the way to proceed.

1. By their fruits you shall know them . . . - I have difficulty with Calvin's actions and thus find him hard to trust

You need to keep the two issues separate....

1] the person...John Calvin

2] The biblical system of teaching known as Calvinism..

two different issues.

2. Limited atonement . . . Where does the Bible support that?

Everywhere...but we must start somewhere:
Chapter 7: Of God's Covenant
1._____ The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience to him as their creator, yet they could never have attained the reward of life but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.
( Luke 17:10; Job 35:7,8 )
2._____ Moreover, man having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace, wherein he freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him, that they may be saved; and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life, his Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.
( Genesis 2:17; Galatians 3:10; Romans 3:20, 21; Romans 8:3; Mark 16:15, 16; John 3:16; Ezekiel 36:26, 27; John 6:44, 45; Psalms 110:3 )

3._____ This covenant is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament; and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency.
( Genesis 3:15; Hebrews 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 11;6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2, &c.; Acts 4:12; John 8:56 )

3, Irresistible predestination . . . Why would Jesus issue the Great Commission if this premise were true?

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3;Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

Here they are...read slow, look up the verses;

http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

 

[Iconoclast]

bluejx,

Hello BX, thanks for your response and clarification.
Most who attempt to object to Calvinism...actually object to a caricature of the teaching most times found on misguided anti cal websites.

To be clear, Iconoclast, I don't believe God is to blame for man's sin

.
Okay good...we agree that God cannot sin...at all. Calvinists start with that fact. God is Holy and Perfect....

My position is that if Calvinists teach God exercises control to the extent some of you Calvinists believe then logically God would necessarily be the author and perpetruator of sin and missery.

Here is what we believe the bible teaches...in part-
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

 

[James Otto]

As for point 1, "Calvinism" predates Calvin.
Point 2 is for the most point merely a terminology issue. Point 3, irresistable grace, would be where Classical Rrminians and Cals differ.

Does this belong in another thread (If so, I'll follow it wherever they repost it ... )
I am curious as to the statement that Calvinism predates Calvin.
It sounds like what you are saying is that the misconduct of a philosophy's champion is not an indication of the veracity or lack thereof of what he says.
Point two . . . Limited atonement . . . I do not see where in the Bible it qualifies the word "all" when it refers to believers and limits it to only a select few. That would mean that I would not have assurance of my own salvation, nor would you or anyone else for that matter. This is not a terminology issue.
As to irresistable grace . . . How is it that you are saying we cannot do as God commands us to do? Why then print or read the Bible? This really throws back to point two as well, as it would be possible under this premise for me to put my trust in Christ as the Scripture prescribes and still be a sinner bound for the fires of Hell...

I am by no means an Arminian, but I cannot embrace Calvinism either as I have not encountered any solid Biblical support for a notion that a person could become saved against his own will.

I would really like to discuss these issues on their own merit and not simply see a dismissive response with no productive conversation.