• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jesus and the death Penalty?

Status
Not open for further replies.
An honest question because I am coming into the debate late in the game, and I didn't peruse the whole thread to see what was said, and what each of you believe in regards to the death penalty.

Where in the NT does it approve of us putting someone to death?


I know it states an "eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth", but where in the NT does it say this? It states that "vengenance is mine, saith the Lord, I shall repay". I am not trying to play the devil's advocate here, but I am not anti-death penalty, per se. I am just uneasy about a court system that has proven people to guilty, and yet, in the end, they were really innocent. And the corrupt DA's would rather have them rot in jail, or be put to death, before they would admit they're wrong.

5,000th post!! Woot woot woot!! :D
 

go2church

Active Member
Site Supporter
Yes....until some deranged hippie liberal godless judge sets them free on an appeal.
Or the "Innocence Project" Convinces an activist judge that a patently guilty person is in fact "innocent"...
...or, they escape...
or they simply resort to murdering their fellow inmates and prison staff, yeah.

These are points for better court and penal system not for the death penalty
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Where in the NT does it approve of us putting someone to death?
Strictly speaking, it doesn't have to. Moral Universals transcend Testaments. In Genesis 9: we have the Noahic covenant:
Gen 9:1 ¶ And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Notice that this covers ALL of his sons, it is not unique to Shem nor anyone else, the following things are Universally relevant.
Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
This is still true, and has never changed.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Again, this has never changed either.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
No one should, at any time, ever intentionally eat blood.
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Notice that this is NOT the "Law". This is a Universal principle. This is before Moses and not unique to any people group, but rather to the fathers of all races into perpetuity. Note vs:
Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
Gen 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This [is] the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that [is] upon the earth.
This is all of us. Jew and gentile alike, and there is nothing in the Noahic covenant that has been superceded or fails to remain valid.
I know it states an "eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth", but where in the NT does it say this?
This is unique to Jewish Law. It is not relevant to us.
It states that "vengenance is mine, saith the Lord, I shall repay".
This is the wrong attitude. Justice systems are not about "vengeance" or "revenge". Justice is to be meted out by God's ministerial servants. Legal authorities. Impartial, blind, and not a party to the offended. It is the "LAW" by which we are to be ruled, not a sense of revenge by an offended party. I like our Western symbol for justice....She is blind-folded, and she holds scales in the one hand and a sword in the other.
I am just uneasy about a court system that has proven people to guilty, and yet, in the end, they were really innocent. And the corrupt DA's would rather have them rot in jail, or be put to death, before they would admit they're wrong.
No judicial system is perfect. So neither "side" should commit the "Perfectionist Fallacy". We don't throw out babies with the bath-water if we can help it. That being said, No innocent man has been truly "proven" to have been executed in the United States since at least the 1950's. Keep in mind that just because someone is acquitted LEGALLY, that does not mean that they are actually innocent of the crime. Our justice system is hard-wired to favour the defendant. Thus, guilty men win appeals all the time. Just because someone is legally acquitted, that certainly does not mean they did not in fact, commit the crime. Don't let activists tell you that someone who wins a legal appeal has been "proven" innocent.
5,000th post!! Woot woot woot!! :D
I humbly stand in fear and awe of your being.
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
These are points for better court and penal system not for the death penalty

Then similarly, by that same token, these phantom "innocent men" being executed are absolutely no argument against the death penalty either.
The reality though, is that the Death Penalty is a 100% tried and true prevention to EVERYTHING I listed. Thus, it is actually, an argument in favour of the death penalty. What is NOT an argument against it, are your phantom "innocent" people, which would fall under the category of an argument for a better court and judicial system.
 

pinoybaptist

Active Member
Site Supporter
An honest question because I am coming into the debate late in the game, and I didn't peruse the whole thread to see what was said, and what each of you believe in regards to the death penalty.

Where in the NT does it approve of us putting someone to death?


I know it states an "eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth", but where in the NT does it say this? It states that "vengenance is mine, saith the Lord, I shall repay". I am not trying to play the devil's advocate here, but I am not anti-death penalty, per se. I am just uneasy about a court system that has proven people to guilty, and yet, in the end, they were really innocent. And the corrupt DA's would rather have them rot in jail, or be put to death, before they would admit they're wrong.

5,000th post!! Woot woot woot!! :D

Brother,

There is NOTHING in the Old Testament or the New Testament that allows an INDIVIDUAL, especially a Christian, to kill in murder (premeditated) another individual. God ALLOWS governments to take the life of another in justice and according to its laws.
Death as a penal imposition is different from administering death to a criminal or law breaker in a vigilante fashion.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Does the NT require capital punishment - NO
Does the NT prohibit capital punishment - NO

So where does that leave us?
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. John 17:15-18
For?* ----- We will get back to that
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

In the world above should a man who kills another to rob him or a man sets off a bomb in a crowd to make some statement and kills others. Should that world forgive those or take their life?


*And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14


And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev 11:15
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Rev 20:3
For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Heb 2:5


What does any believe the rules of law will be in the latter?

Which world do you believe the teachings of Jesus apply to?
Is this present world under the New Covenant?
 

Soulman

New Member
Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

We break mans' laws we get judged by man. God can and does forgive if we repent but there are still consequences to breaking laws. If you kill, you should be killed.
 

Arbo

Active Member
Site Supporter
Does the NT require capital punishment - NO
Does the NT prohibit capital punishment - NO

So where does that leave us?

Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

We break mans' laws we get judged by man. God can and does forgive if we repent but there are still consequences to breaking laws. If you kill, you should be killed.

With the laws that are in force. We are told in Scripture in Pauls letters to obey them.

To me this sums up the argument.
 

go2church

Active Member
Site Supporter
Doesn't mean you can't work to change laws you feel are unjust or unnecessary.
Maryland joined 18 other states in doing away with the death penalty thus week.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
Doesn't mean you can't work to change laws you feel are unjust or unnecessary.
Maryland joined 18 other states in doing away with the death penalty thus week.

Yes. My home state joined the ranks that kills the innocent through abortion and pampers[1] those who kill others. Not a good rank to join.

Sad.

The Archangel


[1] Pampering: 3 square meals per day for life; free medical care for life; and many more things the innocent are deprived of. Indeed a world turned upside-down.
 

Mexdeaf

New Member
Yes. My home state joined the ranks that kills the innocent through abortion and pampers[1] those who kill others. Not a good rank to join.

Sad.

The Archangel


[1] Pampering: 3 square meals per day for life; free medical care for life; and many more things the innocent are deprived of. Indeed a world turned upside-down.

:tear: :( :tear:
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member
Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

We break mans' laws we get judged by man. God can and does forgive if we repent but there are still consequences to breaking laws. If you kill, you should be killed.


Had to go back all the way to Genesis for support of you position, huh? I have to go back only as far as Jesus for support of mine.

For all those who believe we should be following an Old Testament ethic instead of what Jesus taught, why are you not out stoning adulterers?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Oldtimer

New Member
Had to go back all the way to Genesis for support of you position, huh? I have to go back only as far as Jesus for support of mine.

For all those who believe we should be following an Old Testament ethic instead of what Jesus taught, why are you not out stoning adulterers?

Are you saying that nothing in the Old Testament, if not specifically repeated in the New, applies to us today?

No I don't stone adulterers or apply any other form of capital punishment for any sin mentioned in the whole of the Bible. I am not an establisher of law for crime and punishment. Nor in the employ of government to carry out said punishment. Whether it's lethal injection, electric chair, firing squad, hanging or throwing stones.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
Had to go back all the way to Genesis for support of you position, huh? I have to go back only as far as Jesus for support of mine.

For all those who believe we should be following an Old Testament ethic instead of what Jesus taught, why are you not out stoning adulterers?

The position you articulate here is quite problematic, for it shows an unfortunate lack of understanding about the Law itself.

The injunction to pursue the death penalty against those who commit murder is pre-Law, and, as such, would also be post-law.

The "Stoning adulterers" is a strawman at best because you are, literally, comparing apples and oranges.

The Archangel
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Had to go back all the way to Genesis for support of you position, huh? I have to go back only as far as Jesus for support of mine.

For all those who believe we should be following an Old Testament ethic instead of what Jesus taught, why are you not out stoning adulterers?

Creation ordinances are not to be despised. You can show no place where this is over turned. You cannot find Jesus over turning the laws He gave.
Your comment does not demonstrate a proper view of the law.

Failing to carry out the death penalty brings the nation further under the judgement of God.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top