Jesus and the death Penalty?

[Thomas Helwys]

Cute. So your contribution to this discussion will be snarky comments? Is that because you're incapable, don't want to or are just too lazy?

Could be all three, considering some of the comments I've read here.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I am opposed to the death penalty for the following reasons:

1. It goes against the teachings of Jesus - for instance, in the Sermon on the Mount.

2. It has not proven to be a deterrent.

3. If the conviction is in error, there is no chance to correct the error after the person is dead.

4. Life in prison is often a greater punishment than the death penalty.

5. If the person is spared, there is a chance that he/she might be converted. It would be rather difficult for a dead person to be converted.

6. To be pro-life requires a consistent life ethic - no abortion, no death penalty, no euthanasia, no warmongering.

 

[kyredneck]

....there are entirely too many in prison from non violent crimes that could be handled in some other fashion.....

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Humiliating public whipping such as caning of the buttocks along with restitution would do absolute wonders.

 

[Oldtimer]

When you can come back and tell me that you have obtained a doctorate and graduated summa cum laude, then I might attempt to begin to take you seriously.

BTW, I don't look at televangelists. Evidently you do, or you wouldn't be able to reference them. I would suggest that you supplement your sixth grade education by other means.

Otherwise and until then, you will remain a legend only in your own mind.

Used as a representative example only in order to pose this question.

Is this the way brothers and sisters in Christ talk to each other face to face?

Is this the way shepherds of flocks talk to each other when face to face?

If you are reading this and stand before a congregation on Sunday morning, what example are you setting for me? A layman who comes to these forums to TRY grow in maturity in our Lord.

Are the words here displaying what's truly in your heart? Words that you would not utter before another believer, if they can actually look into your eyes? Words that you certainly would not utter before anyone you are personally seeking to listen to the Holy Spirit. To hear His knock at their door.

-- Guess I'm just tired this morning. Have a long day ahead of me of physical work in service of our Lord. This tired old body needs some uplifting, from those in Christ, to help me carry my load today. Instead of being renewed, I'm leaving in a few minutes, feeling mightly low, from the strife, anger, division, name calling, etc. that I've read this morning.

In closing, I'm thankful that I have Another who will help me shoulder my yoke today.

Think about it. PLEASE!

 

[pinoybaptist]

My replies are in parentheses.

I am opposed to the death penalty for the following reasons:

1. It goes against the teachings of Jesus - for instance, in the Sermon on the Mount.
(The sermon on the mount was for INDIVIDUALS (bolding for emphasis only), not for government. The death penalty may be imposed by GOVERNMENT in accordance with its laws and penal provisions. If Jesus is God, then He lied when He said "I change not" because Jehovah of the Old Testament required Israel, the nation, to put to death certain individuals for certain offenses.)

2. It has not proven to be a deterrent. (It was never meant to be a deterrent. It was to wash filth off society. Even if the death penalty laws required that the sentence be imposed within days, as they do in certain parts of the world like China, man is a corrupt creature and will continue to commit crimes so heinous as to warrant the death penalty).


3. If the conviction is in error, there is no chance to correct the error after the person is dead. (Convictions are never in error. All the evidences are heard by either the judge, or a panel of jurors. The conviction is based on existing laws. The INVESTIGATION of the crime, however, is where corrections should be done. It has been shown that detectives and certain members of police forces may be biased against the accuseds and therefore fix the investigation. Or they may just simply be plain LAZY and don't care whichever way their investigation goes. The solution I see is a REVIEW of the evidences and investigation techniques prior to trials.

4. Life in prison is often a greater punishment than the death penalty. (then doesn't that defeat the "Christian" concept of no cruelty ?).

5. If the person is spared, there is a chance that he/she might be converted. It would be rather difficult for a dead person to be converted. (with God nothing is impossible, even at the last nano-second of a sinner's life, conversion may come. By the way, conversion has nothing to do with his eternal destiny).

6. To be pro-life requires a consistent life ethic - no abortion, no death penalty, no euthanasia, no warmongering.

To be pro-life, in my opinion, is to see to it that no person is to be DEPRIVED of his life in a criminal way. It does not equate with "oh, well, what's done is done. now let's make sure this filth of society continues with his life".

By the way, I am not rabidly pro-death penalty, just pro-death penalty. Just that if it's the law, then it's the law, and if the "lawmakers" decide they know better than God, and are more merciful than He is, and wants the death penalty out, I could care less.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The primary reason, other than personal theology, that any person should be against the death penalty is that we now know from DNA testing there are innocent people on death row. That alone should be enough to stop the executions.

 

[Salty]

[QUOTE=Crabtownboy;1979121]The primary reason, other than personal theology, that any person should be against the death penalty is that we now know from DNA testing there are innocent people on death row. That alone should be enough to stop the executions.

[/QUOTE]
and when DNA proves the individual committed the crime, that alone should be enough to proceede with the just punishment.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Used as a representative example only in order to pose this question.

Is this the way brothers and sisters in Christ talk to each other face to face?

Is this the way shepherds of flocks talk to each other when face to face?

If you are reading this and stand before a congregation on Sunday morning, what example are you setting for me? A layman who comes to these forums to TRY grow in maturity in our Lord.

Are the words here displaying what's truly in your heart? Words that you would not utter before another believer, if they can actually look into your eyes? Words that you certainly would not utter before anyone you are personally seeking to listen to the Holy Spirit. To hear His knock at their door.

-- Guess I'm just tired this morning. Have a long day ahead of me of physical work in service of our Lord. This tired old body needs some uplifting, from those in Christ, to help me carry my load today. Instead of being renewed, I'm leaving in a few minutes, feeling mightly low, from the strife, anger, division, name calling, etc. that I've read this morning.

In closing, I'm thankful that I have Another who will help me shoulder my yoke today.

Think about it. PLEASE!

I don't initiate the kinds of things that Aaron said to me. But in replying, I have not yet mastered the art of always turning the other cheek, either.

Also, Jesus had some pretty harsh things to say to Pharisees and such.

 

[Crabtownboy]

[/QUOTE]
and when DNA proves the individual committed the crime, that alone should be enough to proceede with the just punishment.[/QUOTE]



That depends on your personal beliefs and theology.

And if you have a concern about money, it costs less to keep a person in jail for life that to execute them ... at least under US legal conditions.

Turns out, it is cheaper to imprison killers for life than to execute them, according to a series of recent surveys. Tens of millions of dollars cheaper, politicians are learning, during a tumbling recession when nearly every state faces job cuts and massive deficits.

So an increasing number of them are considering abolishing capital punishment in favor of life imprisonment, not on principle but out of financial necessity.

"It's 10 times more expensive to kill them than to keep them alive," though most Americans believe the opposite, said Donald McCartin, a former California jurist known as "The Hanging Judge of Orange County" for sending nine men to death row.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29552692/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/execute-or-not-question-cost/

 

[Thomas Helwys]

My replies are in parentheses.



By the way, I am not rabidly pro-death penalty, just pro-death penalty. Just that if it's the law, then it's the law, and if the "lawmakers" decide they know better than God, and are more merciful than He is, and wants the death penalty out, I could care less.

To comment on your comments:

1. So, you think the ethics that Jesus taught were no different from those of the Old testament? I disagree. And Jesus' own words on that prove it.

2. The death penalty was definitely and undoubtedly meant to be a deterrent. One hears this argument used all the time.

3. You are playing word games here. Convictions are in error more than people realize, especially since the use of DNA tests.

4. Are you contending that the death penalty isn't cruelty?

5. So, conversion has nothing to do with one's eternal destiny? Seriously?

6. No one created in the image of God is filth.

Life in prison is much to be preferred to the death penalty, for the reasons I stated.

Thanks for the reasonable and civil discussion. This proves such is possible, despite some remarks from some here.

 

[Salty]

That depends on your personal beliefs and theology.

Since when does theology have anything to do with the court system?

And if you have a concern about money, it costs less to keep a person in jail for life that to execute them ... at least under US legal conditions.

First, I never said anything about money. Second, its about justice

Will make compromise - will go with life* imprisonment - on a highly secured island - such as Alcatraz and the sentence may only be overturned by the Executive and 2/3 vote of the Senate. Life in prison will be 2 meals a day- no TV, no entertainment,no goverment provided education, no weight room, ect. One visitor per month
Do you accept?


* of course that is life without possibility of parole

 

[pinoybaptist]

The primary reason, other than personal theology, that any person should be against the death penalty is that we now know from DNA testing there are innocent people on death row. That alone should be enough to stop the executions.

Again, I point you to PAST (1) lousy police work, (2) biased police work (like, heck, he's black, who cares if he hangs, or he's a wetback, so he did it, or he's got a rap sheet a mile long, let's pin this on him), (3) unavailability of supporting scientific labs, like we do now.
Great that DNA is now available, it wasn't, back then.
Instead of stopping the death penalty, INVESTIGATE every danged one of those cops and prosecutors who put innocent people in jail without prejudice to criminal complaints against them.

 

[Salty]

... INVESTIGATE every danged ... prosecutors who put innocent people in jail without prejudice to criminal complaints against them.

just wondering how many of those DA's were up for re-election during a high profile crime....

 

[Revmitchell]

Again, I point you to PAST (1) lousy police work, (2) biased police work (like, heck, he's black, who cares if he hangs, or he's a wetback, so he did it, or he's got a rap sheet a mile long, let's pin this on him), (3) unavailability of supporting scientific labs, like we do now.
Great that DNA is now available, it wasn't, back then.
Instead of stopping the death penalty, INVESTIGATE every danged one of those cops and prosecutors who put innocent people in jail without prejudice to criminal complaints against them.

It is a false reason. Even if there were no one incorrectly convicted and the justice system worked perfectly without flaw he still would be against it. Don't let him fool ya.

 

[percho]

O Brother Where Art Thou


Pete: The Preacher said it absolved us.
Ulysses Everett McGill: For him, not for the law. I'm surprised at you, Pete, I gave you credit for more brains than Delmar.
Delmar O'Donnell: But they was witnesses that seen us redeemed.
Ulysses Everett McGill: That's not the issue Delmar. Even if that did put you square with the Lord, the State of Mississippi's a little more hard-nosed.
[laughs]
Ulysses Everett McGill: Baptism! You two are just dumber than a bag of hammers!

 

[percho]

Will there be flesh born people being ruled in the kingdom of God? Will they be ruled by flesh born or spirit born people?

By what rules of government will they be ruled, if the answer to the first question is yes?

Will the rulers in the kingdom of God, that is those who were born again into the kingdom of God be able to sin anymore?

If there are non spirit born people being ruled by the spirit born will the non spirit born be able to sin?

Will, "Satan," be able to influence the people of the world to come?

 

[percho]

One more question, maybe two.

Will the rulers of the kingdom of God have gone through a baptism other than water baptism in the context of Luke 12:50 and Matt. 20:23 and if yes, just what will that baptism be and is it relative to this OP in context of the OP being relevant to the kingdom of God?

 

[pinoybaptist]

To comment on your comments:

1. So, you think the ethics that Jesus taught were no different from those of the Old testament? I disagree. And Jesus' own words on that prove it.

I'm saying the Sermon on the Mount is for INDIVIDUALS, not government. These are two different personalities. You have Jehovah, and Paul, against you right now.

2. The death penalty was definitely and undoubtedly meant to be a deterrent. One hears this argument used all the time.

Just because it is the constant and popular argument doesn't mean it's true and correct.

3. You are playing word games here. Convictions are in error more than people realize, especially since the use of DNA tests.

If convictions are erroneous, those convictions were based on evidence gathered by the police, reviewed by the prosecution, presented to the judge, and brought before the jury. The sentences handed down are based on all these things. The DNA tests are a boon to the justice system, yes, but compared to the number of convicts in jail under the death penalty how many have actually been proven to be innocent ?
Also, organizations like the Innocence Project (?) do a very intensive study and review of evidences and trial records before they even proceed with a request for a re-trial and endorse (?) DNA testing for any convict who write them.
[/QUOTE]

4. Are you contending that the death penalty isn't cruelty?

No, it is not. It is kinder than having the perp sit in his jail cell for years until he dies, exposing him to the cruelty, violence, and corruption within the penal system.
But you wouldn't understand that, because you've never been in even a municipal jail, have you ?
It is kindness to society, too, because society is not threatened with the danger of having the felon living in their midst once again, young or old.

5. So, conversion has nothing to do with one's eternal destiny? Seriously?

Conversion is a process. It is a turning from right to wrong, or vice-versa. Peter had been converted from unbelief to belief, Paul too. The centurion converted from paganism to Judaism. A "hyper"-Calvinist may convert to being extremely Pelagian, and vice-versa. A "Christian" might convert to atheism. Conversion is a change.
Regeneration is not conversion.
Redemption is not conversion.
The latter is a product of the former

6. No one created in the image of God is filth.

True. But in the process of life, they act like filth, think like filth, talk filth, and many have deeds that are filth. Ergo, the death penalty required by Jehovah for those who practice abomination and confusion within the nation Israel. Practices like sodomy or homosexuality, murder, or adultery. Did God who created man hope that with the sentence of death, those practices would be "deterred" ?

Life in prison is much to be preferred to the death penalty, for the reasons I stated.

You are entitled to your opinion. and like I said, I'm not rabidly pro-death penalty. Just....well...comfortable with it as part of the law.

Thanks for the reasonable and civil discussion. This proves such is possible, despite some remarks from some here.

You're welcome. You should see me when I'm really riled up. hehehe. lol.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is a false reason. Even if there were no one incorrectly convicted and the justice system worked perfectly without flaw he still would be against it. Don't let him fool ya.

You are correct in that assumption, but my question would be ...

was it OK when God ordered execution for capital crimes as he defined them under the Old covenant then?

if wrong now, wouldn't it be wrong still back then?

 

[Revmitchell]

You are correct in that assumption, but my question would be ...

was it OK when God ordered execution for capital crimes as he defined them under the Old covenant then?

if wrong now, wouldn't it be wrong still back then?

Well if you are asking me then your asking the wrong question. It is neither wrong then or now. God does not change his character or principles.