Jesus Christ: Did He Ever Save Anyone, Really ?

[Hawkins]

Jesus Christ's job is to finish the atonement for unlimited (can be unknown) number of people to be saved. God's job is make sure that those whose names are written on the Book of Life of the Lamb to be saved.

Jesus Christ doesn't need to count His fingers to know who and who will be saved before He decides to sacrifice Himself for the atonement. His sacrifice can save unlimted number of human souls, all left is how many will accept the offer and take the free gift of the covenant. God knows the number though.

 

[olegig]

So, no one wants to step up to the plate ?

I think many have stepped up to the plate and hit home runs here, maybe you were out getting a hotdog when it happened,,,,,,,,,,,,,.

Christ's work was finished. He fulled the law and made the one and only blood sacrifice payment for sin that would completely wash it away.
However the application of this payment is not finished because we see the apostle Paul telling us how the application is to spread to all the world.
Paul says in Rom 10 that faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by sending a preacher.

Now it is time for you to step up to the plate and tell us why would the Holy Spirit have Paul give us this order of knowledge if the application of the work of cross had already been made to everyone to which it was intended in eternity past.

Pinoybaptist, the basic disagreement between Calvinism and Biblicalism is not in the method of Salvation, for the disagreement is when this Glorious Salvation is applied.
The continual argument on the method of salvation is only a strawman thrown up to avoid the real issue.

Calvinism feels before the foundation of the world God decreed who would be saved, thus they feel it is finished.
Calvinism places the method of salvation and the application of salvation in eternity past, before man was even created.

Biblicalism feels before the foundation of the world God decreed how He would save mankind and what would become of them once they are saved.
Biblicalism places the method of salvation in eternity past; but the application of salvation in real time is based on the foreknowledge of each man's heart by God of how each man would receive the offer of said salvation.

The above raises a few questions. It is time one should address these questions for every time they are asked, they are just ignored and avoided.
So, my friend, step up to the plate and please explain:

--If God decreed who would be save, then by default God also decreed who would be lost; therefore when the lost go to Hell, Calvinism makes it God's fault, not man's.

--If God's chosen are saved in eternity past then that conflicts with the scriptures that tell us man is born in Adam, in sin; but Calvinism would have us believe the saved are in Christ before they are even born.
So how does one explain that the saved are first "in Christ", then born "in Adam", then placed back "in Christ"?

I have never seen the scriptural proof of the above, in fact, I have never seen it addressed by Calvinism, only avoided.

--The amillennial avoids and ignores passages dealing with the physical nature of the future Kingdom.
--The Replacement Theologist avoids and ignores passages dealing with God's promise to never forget the seed of Israel.
--And the Calvinist avoids and ignores the above implications of their belief system.

So now, my friend, we hand the bat over to you.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I think many have stepped up to the plate and hit home runs here, maybe you were out getting a hotdog when it happened,,,,,,,,,,,,,.

Christ's work was finished. He fulled the law and made the one and only blood sacrifice payment for sin that would completely wash it away.
However the application of this payment is not finished because we see the apostle Paul telling us how the application is to spread to all the world.

And that, with the exception of very few on this board, is what everybody is saying, and which I have been saying.

Yes, Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, BUT....Yes, Jesus Christ is Savior, BUT.....Yes, Jesus Christ finished the work, BUT.....

And each and everyone or most of you all will be indignant if anyone so much as hinted that salvation is grace PLUS, yet you all say that salvation is grace PLUS !

JESUS CHRIST FINISHED THE SALVATION OF ALL HIS PEOPLE. IT IS DONE. FINISHED. THE END. KAPUT. FINI. END OF THE LINE. (I am using bolds and caps for emphasis, not to yell).
Everything else that follows AFTER that is for the learning of His people, that they through the Scriptures might have hope.
no one is willing to let go of what little glory for themselves they cling to. no one is willing to say JESUS DID IT ALL.

Paul says in Rom 10 that faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by sending a preacher.

Now it is time for you to step up to the plate and tell us why would the Holy Spirit have Paul give us this order of knowledge if the application of the work of cross had already been made to everyone to which it was intended in eternity past.

And I have stepped up to this plate repeatedly in previous threads and previous posts.
This Pauline admonition is one that has been repeatedly taken out of context not only by "Biblicalists" so-called, but even by many Calvinists, and undoudtedly the whole lot of classical- and neo-Arminians, and the Pelagians, and semi-Pelagians, just as they have taken out of context and mangled 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance."
And then they all demand context when it is them guilty of lifting a Scripture out of context.

Romans 10.

Who is Paul talking about ? (context, anyone ?) " Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is , that they might be saved. (v1)
Saved from what ? This same Paul who will confront an Apostle that lived,talked, slept, and ate with Jesus, who was there on the day the Lamb of Glory was crucified, because this Apostle was guilty of a second's turning from grace on account of Judaizers, will this same Apostle Paul now say what many on this forum is saying ? That Christ did not actually save anyone with His blood at the cross ? And that he, Paul, has the message of salvation, and it is the message that saves, not the object and subject of the message ?

verse 2: For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. Why not according to knowledge ?
verse 3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Who is the righteousness of God ? It is Christ, but Judaists have no faith in Christ, and the reason they have no faith in Christ, at this point of time (context, please) 20 some years after the crucifixion and the resurrection, is because this Israel, Paul's generation, is a new generation of Jews who were not there when God did mighty things, just like the generation that did not see the mighty things God did for Moses and their ancestors.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God is correct, and at the same time disproves everybody on this board's contention that faith is a necessary requisite for eternal salvation, or for regeneration, and you yourselves are proof of this, if so be that you cannot outrightly say that Jesus Christ DID FINISH THE WORK OF REDEMPTION, NOTHING MISSING, NOTHING TO BE ADDED, because the cross happened 2000 years ago, just as in the case of these Jews to whom Paul wanted to bring the message of a seated and soon coming King, to them the cross happened twenty some years before !

Like I said in another post: GUESS WHAT, HE DIDN'T WAIT FOR YOUR FAITH!
HE DIDN'T WAIT FOR YOUR CONVERSION !
Why ?
Because that is not the cross' task !
The cross and the blood was for the sealing of His people's redemption in this time world.
It is over, done.
All for whom the work of redemption was accomplished will open their eyes in glory.
You all can sputter and stutter and grow red in the face thinking: what ? my faith don't count ? No, it don't. Not for eternity.
Your faith counts for here, this time world.
Your faith in Christ justifies you before God, yes, but it is the blood ultimately that gained your pardon, and your faith in the living God separates you from those who put their faith in their religions and their creeds and your life, springing from your faith, justifies you before all in this crooked world.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Pinoybaptist, the basic disagreement between Calvinism and Biblicalism is not in the method of Salvation, for the disagreement is when this Glorious Salvation is applied.
The continual argument on the method of salvation is only a strawman thrown up to avoid the real issue.

I am not a Calvinist. I am a Primitive Baptist, and there are some differences between Calvinists and a Primitive Baptist. Some PB's would call it major. Maybe.

Calvinism feels before the foundation of the world God decreed who would be saved, thus they feel it is finished.
Calvinism places the method of salvation and the application of salvation in eternity past, before man was even created.

I leave this to the Calvinists.

Biblicalism feels before the foundation of the world God decreed how He would save mankind and what would become of them once they are saved.
Biblicalism places the method of salvation in eternity past; but the application of salvation in real time is based on the foreknowledge of each man's heart by God of how each man would receive the offer of said salvation.

We have a word for that in Filipino (maybe Castillian, too, not sure): mestizo.
I think in English it's called: hybrid.
It's the age of hybrids, anyway.
Cowboys, if I'm not mistaken, say: half-cocked.

It's a period, which is not quite a period.
And it all comes from Scriptures being lifted totally out of context, and from the base human desire to be "as gods".

The above raises a few questions. It is time one should address these questions for every time they are asked, they are just ignored and avoided.
So, my friend, step up to the plate and please explain:

--If God decreed who would be save, then by default God also decreed who would be lost; therefore when the lost go to Hell, Calvinism makes it God's fault, not man's.

Well, my friend, I would have the Calvinists answer this, but, really, this accusation, that the doctrine makes God the author of sin, is not hurled to them only.
Among PB's this is called Double Predestination, or Absolutism (if I recall correctly) and the majority of my people reject it, both those opposed to today's modern missionism among PB's, and those who support it.

Let's get down to the nitty-gritty of things.

Who first sinned ? And who had true freedom of choice to choose obedience to God or belief to another creature ? I guess you know the answer to that.

Now, someone may say, but God had the power within Him to soften Adam or Eve's heart and therefore make them obey Him. Well, didn't someone also say that the Doctrine of Grace makes humans robots ? Now, are we going to demand that God should have made our first parents robots, so that He doesn't have to make us robots ?
Damned if He don't, damned if He does ?

Next, Adam, the federal head, having rejected Him thru their disobedience, is He still under obligation to save Adam and His race ?
So, if He chooses, sovereignly, to save multitudes which no man could number (look it up somewhere in revelation and to His promises to Abraham) even if He is under no obligation to, and seeing that the Federal Head sinned because God chose to have him have his way, maybe if only to show that without divine intervention man will always make a fool of himself, does this make God the author of sin, or does it make Him a just God, and a merciful One ?

--If God's chosen are saved in eternity past

now, you are dangerously near to what we PB's call, and reject, eternal sonships.
Only Christ is the eternal Son.
No one was saved in eternity past.
All God's people were elect in Christ from eternity past, and until the cross, all God's people who died before the cross in this time world, were washed in the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Some thru the waters, some thru the flood, some thru the fire, but ALL through the blood, remember the song ?

What it is is that no one of God's people will be lost because their eternal security is in the Eternal Son of God, and He did what He was to do, and in Genesis' words: And God said "it was very good".


Olegig, unfortunately I, like you, live in a fallen world, where as a result of Adam's sin, I must "toil the ground", in order for it to sustain me.
I need to go now, lest my wife and I end up sleeping in the hallway like that poor fellow.
I will talk to you again.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Jesus Christ's job is to finish the atonement for unlimited (can be unknown) number of people to be saved. God's job is make sure that those whose names are written on the Book of Life of the Lamb to be saved.

Jesus Christ doesn't need to count His fingers to know who and who will be saved before He decides to sacrifice Himself for the atonement. His sacrifice can save unlimted number of human souls, all left is how many will accept the offer and take the free gift of the covenant. God knows the number though.

Yeah.
Jesus Christ is Savior, He is the One who saves His people.....BUT...

welcome to the club.

 

[pinoybaptist]

At the cross, Christ finished the propitiation for sin. That is what was finished.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I am sorry, Amy, as much as I respect you, I will have to argue against this by saying study the way "world" is used in Scriptures, and the clue is, that most often it refers to the "nations", the Gentiles, and considering how Jews were racists to the core (Gentiles are dogs, and it is inconceivable to many of them that God should "save" anyone but a Jew)
this Scripture seemly confirms that God's people are in the whole world, including the nations.

 

[psalms109:31]

Simple

God made the word so easy a child can understand it. When He said the world He means the world. He isn't going to tell us one thing and later in our maturity say this is what I really mean. that is why I truly believe God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned, because they are always trying to be smarter than God and then tells Him what He really means by that.

 

[The Archangel]

God made the word so easy a child can understand it. When He said the world He means the world. He isn't going to tell us one thing and later in our maturity say this is what I really mean. that is why I truly believe God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned, because they are always trying to be smarter than God and then tells Him what He really means by that.

Translating the word κόσμος is more related to context than the actual definition. How John uses the word is different from how Peter or Paul might use the word, for example.

Is John referring to the planet? Is he referring to the people on the planet? Is he referring to the animals and vegetation and the rocks, and not the people, on the planet?

Context matters. For example: If I say "Run" how do you know what I mean. Do I mean "I'm going to 'run' out and get gas in my car?" Do I mean "I'm watching baseball and my favorite team just scored a 'run?'" Do I mean you should "run" because someone is about to attack you? Context matters.

I think "world" does refer to people. However, John uses the word "Propitiation" which means to remove God's wrath by a sacrifice appeasing His wrath (loose paraphrase). So, if the sins of every person have indeed been propitiated, then there is no wrath of God for anyone to suffer in Hell. Thus, you have universalism. We know there are sheep and there are goats, so this cannot be the case. Therefore, it cannot be talking about everyone without exception. It is much more likely that John is talking about everyone without distinction--in other words a plethora of people.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[pinoybaptist]

....then that conflicts with the scriptures that tell us man is born in Adam, in sin;

There is only one scripture with the phrase "in Adam" and that is in 1 Corinthians 15:22, and the context is the resurrection of the saints from corruption (in Adam) to incorruption (in Christ).

but Calvinism would have us believe the saved are in Christ before they are even born.
So how does one explain that the saved are first "in Christ", then born "in Adam", then placed back "in Christ"?

Again, I do not presume to speak for Calvinists.
I speak as a Primitive Baptist.
For some reason, we're like soldiers and marines.
A soldier is a soldier, a marine is a marine.
The confusion, I say with respect, is in your mind.
Romans 8:29 says that "For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
When did this foreknowing take place ?
In another part of the Bible it says the Book of Life was written and the names therein before the foundation of the world.
When did the fall come about ?
After the foundation of the world.
Did God know it will happen ?
Yes He did.
Why He let it happen, I don't know, He'll have to tell us when we get to glory, just as He opened up Scriptures to the two on the way to Emmaus who were confused about the events that transpired.
So, He had His people in Christ before the fall, and they have always been in Christ since, and everything they are and that they look forward to they are and have in Christ, and without and apart from Him, they are as wicked as those who, like their fallen parents, are in rebellion against God.
They are sinners by choice through their federal head, and God didn't have to harden or soften their hearts.
He does have to work on their hearts in regeneration to will and to do of His good pleasure.

I have never seen the scriptural proof of the above, in fact, I have never seen it addressed by Calvinism, only avoided.

And I confronted it. So ask the Calvinists here.

--The amillennial avoids and ignores passages dealing with the physical nature of the future Kingdom.
--The Replacement Theologist avoids and ignores passages dealing with God's promise to never forget the seed of Israel.
--And the Calvinist avoids and ignores the above implications of their belief system.

see above.

So now, my friend, we hand the bat over to you.

And many on here will say I didn't hit the ball.

 

[pinoybaptist]

God made the word so easy a child can understand it. When He said the world He means the world. He isn't going to tell us one thing and later in our maturity say this is what I really mean. that is why I truly believe God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned, because they are always trying to be smarter than God and then tells Him what He really means by that.

Then why the tendency among many here to refer to the "original languages" ?

And God Himself said to compare spiritual with spiritual, here a little, there a little.

 

[psalms109:31]

Translation

We all believe that God is in control so He is in control the Holy Bible was translated the way He wanted it. If you want to go to the original language then all the meaning are right within the context. We can't pick and choose what best fits our belief system.

We can't see as universalism because God can't go against all He speaks. So He will only save believers withion the world. Those who believe God even over thier own understanding.

 

[The Archangel]

We all believe that God is in control so He is in control the Holy Bible was translated the way He wanted it. If you want to go to the original language then all the meaning are right within the context. We can't pick and choose what best fits our belief system.

We can't see as universalism because God can't go against all He speaks. So He will only save believers withion the world. Those who believe God even over thier own understanding.

I'm sorry, but given the typos and grammatical challenges in your above post, I'm having a very difficult time understanding what you are trying to say. If I may ask, could you clarify what you are trying to say?

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[psalms109:31]

Hope this is better for you, I was doing changes after I posted.

We all believe that God is in control so He is in control the Holy Bible was translated the way He wanted it. If you want to go to the original language then all the meaning are right within the context. We can't pick and choose what best fits our belief system.

We can't see as universalism because God can't go against all He speaks. So He will only save believers within the world, those who believe God even over their own understanding.

 

[psalms109:31]

chose

If God chooses people for grammar, He shouldn’t of chosen me.:tonofbricks:

 

[pinoybaptist]

If God chooses people for grammar, He shouldn’t of chosen me.:tonofbricks:

lol.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[pinoybaptist]

I'm sorry, but given the typos and grammatical challenges in your above post, I'm having a very difficult time understanding what you are trying to say. If I may ask, could you clarify what you are trying to say?

Blessings,

The Archangel

Hey, Archangel,

Which is the hub city in Maryland ?
Baltimore ?

 

[Tom Butler]

God made the word so easy a child can understand it. When He said the world He means the world. He isn't going to tell us one thing and later in our maturity say this is what I really mean. that is why I truly believe God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned, because they are always trying to be smarter than God and then tells Him what He really means by that.

Let me add to Archangel's comments regarding the use of the word "world."

One meaning of world is "unbelievers:
John 7:7 "The world cannot hate you, but me it hateth...."

John 12:31 "Now this is the judgment of the world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive...."

John 15:18 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you."

Another meaning of world is Gentiles vs. Jews:

Romans 11: 12. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!


Another: A cross-section of tongues, tribes and nations

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou was slain, and hast redeemed us to God by the blood out of every kindred, and tongue and people and nation.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld , and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne.....

I'll post some others later, but I think the point is made that "world" does not always mean all people without exception.

The argument for universal atonement will have to be made some other way.

 

[psalms109:31]

God loved the world

God loved the world, everyone.

When we are in Christ we are no longer apart of the world.

God loved the world, but if you don't come to Christ or turn to Him for your salvation, you will face condemnation.

All those scripture you give is truth.

I praise God that I am not apart of this world because of Jesus and I praise God that the world has the same hope as I do. That God is no respecter of person.

 

[kyredneck]

The 'world' is oftentimes referring to the ecclesiastical system:

Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18:20.

 

[pinoybaptist]

God loved the world, but if you don't come to Christ or turn to Him for your salvation, you will face condemnation.

So, in the end, the sinner's redemption and salvation from condemnation, is in the sinner's hand.
The cross means nothing.
The blood means nothing.
Hebrews 9:12 is a lie.
Jesus Christ needs to be crucified over and over again to redeem the one who turns to Him.

this is what I've been saying all along.
You all are like the apostles before they were witnesses to the risen Christ.
They knew who He was, they heard what He was saying, but none of them in their hearts actually understood or even believed that He was going to rise again.

You all know who Christ is, you know what He's done, you know where He is, but the depth of the grace and mercy which He showered on you is something that still escapes you, except for a few here.
If He were here right now to tell you that He has already secured your eternity, you would, like Peter, take Him aside, and in so many words tell Him He doesn't know what He's talking about.