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Jesus Christ: Did He Ever Save Anyone, Really ?
- Thread starter pinoybaptist
- Start date
First, the scriptures do not teach that Adam's sin was imputed to me or anyone else. The scriptures teach that God never punishes a son for his father's sin or vice versa.
Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
And further proof that you misinterpret the scriptures, if what you say is true then all men would be saved.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 5 is the very chapter Calvinists use to argue Adam's sin was imputed to all men, but if so verse 18 would show that the free gift of justification unto life by Christ was also imputed to all men.
No, the scriptures teach a man becomes a sinner when he knowingly and willingly sins. And righteousness is only imputed to those who believe on Christ.
Winman:
Calvinists and those of the DoG agree with Calvin in the Sovereignty of God in choosing whom He wants in His kingdom in Heaven and on Earth, we agree with the doctrine that because of Adam's transgression he dragged all his posterity down with him, and that all his descendants carry in them the same fallen nature that Adam has.
We agree that God is just in imputing Adam's sin to all his posterity, and we agree that without His mercy and grace no one deserves heaven, if only for this imputation.
However, like you, myself, and others in this forum, Calvin is not infallible, and many of us who agree with him in a lot of things also part ways with him in others, one of which is his belief that God predestined the fall of Adam.
Now, you, on the other hand, in saying that all Calvinists make God the source of sin, are imputing on all Calvinists and DoG's the statement of Calvin.
God is just in imputing on all the posterity of Adam the sin of Adam and on pronouncing on all his posterity the same condemnation that sin deserves because He is holy.
You, on the other hand, are unjust in imputing on all Calvinists what many among them also say is error, because you are not holy, and your motivation is base: the destruction of the Doctrine of Grace.
Now, answer the question:
If God is unjust in imputing on the entire human race the sin of one man, Adam, why in the world is He just in imputing the righteousness of Christ on His people, which includes you, if you claim Christ as your Savior and Redeemer ?
If you think it is unfair to impute Adam's sinfulness on the whole human race, why should it be fair to impute Christ's righteousness on sinners ?
Calvinists and those of the DoG agree with Calvin in the Sovereignty of God in choosing whom He wants in His kingdom in Heaven and on Earth, we agree with the doctrine that because of Adam's transgression he dragged all his posterity down with him, and that all his descendants carry in them the same fallen nature that Adam has.
We agree that God is just in imputing Adam's sin to all his posterity, and we agree that without His mercy and grace no one deserves heaven, if only for this imputation.
However, like you, myself, and others in this forum, Calvin is not infallible, and many of us who agree with him in a lot of things also part ways with him in others, one of which is his belief that God predestined the fall of Adam.
Now, you, on the other hand, in saying that all Calvinists make God the source of sin, are imputing on all Calvinists and DoG's the statement of Calvin.
God is just in imputing on all the posterity of Adam the sin of Adam and on pronouncing on all his posterity the same condemnation that sin deserves because He is holy.
You, on the other hand, are unjust in imputing on all Calvinists what many among them also say is error, because you are not holy, and your motivation is base: the destruction of the Doctrine of Grace.
Now, answer the question:
If God is unjust in imputing on the entire human race the sin of one man, Adam, why in the world is He just in imputing the righteousness of Christ on His people, which includes you, if you claim Christ as your Savior and Redeemer ?
If you think it is unfair to impute Adam's sinfulness on the whole human race, why should it be fair to impute Christ's righteousness on sinners ?
I am not a no-heller as well but would say this in their defense.
"No-heller" is a misnomer, no-hellers (from my general study) believe that what is called "hell" exists but is not an eternal condition (BTW the word "eternal" does not appear in the original language of Galatians 1:8).
They teach that every human being has been redeemed through the vicarious blood atonement of Jesus Christ and eventually all will enter into His presence and acknowledge Him as Lord.
They are adamant that Christ is the only way. Whether Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, whatever, eventually every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God.
Again, I am not a no-heller, just explaining their reasoning.
HankD
If you don't agree with Calvin, maybe some should not call themselves Calvinists (I know you do not).
What you fail to understand is that Adam introduced the condemnation or judgment into the world. When Adam sinned he introduced the "death penalty" to any that sin. Look at Romans again carefully and you will see that is what it is saying:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Many incorrectly interpret this verse to say "sin" passed upon all men, but that is not what it says. It says "death" passed upon all men for that "all have sinned". When you sin, the death penalty that Adam introduced into the world passes upon you. But this verse does not say Adam's sin passed upon you or anyone else.
God does not impute Adam's sin to anyone. And when you sin God does not impute it to your children.
This is a false doctrine introduced primarily by Augustine that was not believed by the overwhelming majority of early church fathers. Calvin was a student of Augustine and introduced this error into his theology.
What you fail to understand is that Adam introduced the condemnation or judgment into the world. When Adam sinned he introduced the "death penalty" to any that sin. Look at Romans again carefully and you will see that is what it is saying:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Many incorrectly interpret this verse to say "sin" passed upon all men, but that is not what it says. It says "death" passed upon all men for that "all have sinned". When you sin, the death penalty that Adam introduced into the world passes upon you. But this verse does not say Adam's sin passed upon you or anyone else.
God does not impute Adam's sin to anyone. And when you sin God does not impute it to your children.
This is a false doctrine introduced primarily by Augustine that was not believed by the overwhelming majority of early church fathers. Calvin was a student of Augustine and introduced this error into his theology.
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Yes, there are some Universal Reconciliationists who are, for all intents and purposes, hyper-Calvinists. The only difference is that they believe that hell for the reprobate is not eternal and that eventually the reprobates in hell will repent and be reconciled to heaven.
I am not a UR or any form of universalist, by the way.
Because some people try so desperately hard to have their cake and eat it too.
I have no idea where the term Calvinists came from, but I can assure you it most likely did not originate from those who hold on to many of the same doctrines that Calvin held to.winman said:
We are Primitive Baptists, but we did not christen ourselves such, those that went over to the Missionary Baptists called us that.
The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch, and it was their enemies who called them that.
No, look at the verse. "Death passed upon ALL men, for that ALL HAVE SINNED, not 'ALL WILL SIN", or "ALL ARE SINNING".winman said:
All have sinned.
Have sinned is not when you sin.
As far as God is concerned, every human being HAVE ALREADY SINNED because BY Adam, sin entered into the world.
Sin is what entered into the world, and along with it came death, "For the wages OF sin is death".
Adam was duly warned by God, "on the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt SURELY die", BECAUSE he is found to have sinned, transgressed the command.
Adam sinned FIRST, and then he died spiritually.
There is NOT ONE single person on this planet, ANYTIME, who will not sin, because that is what their nature is, and that nature is inherited from Adam.
The Scriptures say: "Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men? Yea, IN HEART ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth. The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies.
The verse does say that Adam introduced sin into the world. It also does say that "all have sinned." Adam's sin had the penalty of death. Everyone who sins has the penalty of death. Therefore, Adam's sin introduced both sin and death to everyone. Are you going to argue the possibility of someone (besides Jesus) being completely free from sin? No? On what grounds?
I do agree with you completely that no one is guilty for Adam's sin. Everyone is guilty only for one's own sins. I do not agree with the "imputed guilt" idea.
I agree completely. I will be on record of disagreeing with anyone here who believes this.
Adam's sin did "curse" all his descendants with a fallen nature that is enslaved to sin. Because Adam introduced sin, everyone sins. Everyone is guilty only of his own sins. However, there is not a person on the earth that doeth good and sinneth not. You cannot say that anyone has the same "free will" that Adam supposedly had; otherwise, you would have to admit the possibility of sinless perfection.
Actually, is there any "fair" or "unfair" with God since He makes the rules?Originally Posted by pinoybaptist
Now, answer the question:
If God is unjust in imputing on the entire human race the sin of one man, Adam, why in the world is He just in imputing the righteousness of Christ on His people, which includes you, if you claim Christ as your Savior and Redeemer ?
If you think it is unfair to impute Adam's sinfulness on the whole human race, why should it be fair to impute Christ's righteousness on sinners ?
Because some people try so desperately hard to have their cake and eat it too.
Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
HankD
Because some people try so desperately hard to have their cake and eat it too.
Well, that's all fine and dandy to say, but I showed quite a few scriptures that show that Adam's sin is not imputed to us. In Deut 24:16 God says the father shall not be put to death for the sin of the sons, nor the sons put to death for the sin of the father. But your doctrine contradicts this and says Adam's sin, and the death sentence for sin has passed on everyone because of Adam's sin.
Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Then I showed in Romans 5:12 that the scriptures teach that death, that is the death penalty is what passes on all men, not Adam's sin.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
I also showed in Romans 5:18 that if you argue that Adam's sin was imputed to all men, then you also have to believe that the free gift of justification unto life passed on all men through Christ's righteousness.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
And if you read this verse carefully you will see it further supports what I have said, because it says because of the offence of one "judgment" came upon all men. It does not say sin.
You Calvinists always come back with your snide remarks, but you never address the scriptures. If I have misinterpreted these scriptures, then show me how I have done so.
Better dig into your commentaries and find out how Calvinists explain away these easily understood verses.
True, but it seems some on this board are intent at kicking the pricks.
Well, all who are alive have sinned. Everyone has sinned from the womb by his nature.
I would disagree. "Have sinned" means "have sinned."
Every person born has sinned even from the womb--their own sin. I believe that Paul is saying that Adam introduced sin into the world and that all of his descendants inherit the curse of sin and death, thus they sin and are guilty. They are guilty of sin because they have sinned themselves, not because the "federal head" sinned but because they sinned. However, they did sin because the "federal head" gave them that nature.
Anyway, the result is still the same. Everyone is a sinner. Everyone sins. Everyone is guilty of sin. Everyone dies.
I agree completely.
Amen. However, they are guilty of only their own sin, not Adam's. However, Adam gave them their sin nature whereby they sin.
Well, that's all fine and dandy to say, but I showed quite a few scriptures that show that Adam's sin is not imputed to us. In Deut 24:16 God says the father shall not be put to death for the sin of the sons, nor the sons put to death for the sin of the father. But your doctrine contradicts this and says Adam's sin, and the death sentence for sin has passed on everyone because of Adam's sin.
Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Then I showed in Romans 5:12 that the scriptures teach that death, that is the death penalty is what passes on all men, not Adam's sin.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
I also showed in Romans 5:18 that if you argue that Adam's sin was imputed to all men, then you also have to believe that the free gift of justification unto life passed on all men through Christ's righteousness.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
And if you read this verse carefully you will see it further supports what I have said, because it says because of the offence of one "judgment" came upon all men. It does not say sin.
You Calvinists always come back with your snide remarks, but you never address the scriptures. If I have misinterpreted these scriptures, then show me how I have done so.
Better dig into your commentaries and find out how Calvinists explain away these easily understood verses.
The way you handle your so-called easily understood verses remind me of a chimp gifted with a machine gun.
Fine, explain how I misrepresented these scriptures.
I do not believe that Adam's own "sin" is imputed to us. I believe that the results of Adam's sin--a depraved nature and the penalty of sin--are imputed to us.
Nice, but this is the Mosaic Law. This has to do with civil and criminal law.
For instance, if a man commits a murder, escapes, and eventually dies without justice, the family that was wronged from the murder cannot mete justice by putting the murderer's son to death by imputing the guilt of the crime on the "family." God holds each person accountable for one's own sins and not the sins of another.
How do you know what "my doctrine" is, Salem witch hunter?
As I posted above I do not agree with the idea of "imputed guilt."I agree with your premise. Still, the verse says that death passed upon all because all have sinned. If all have sinned, then obviously we have inherited more from Adam than a penalty. We have inherited a sin nature, whereby we inevitably sin even from the womb. If I recall correctly, you claimed that Adam's sin did not affect our wills. We have no "fallen nature" and have the same "free will" that Adam had. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall something to that effect. If that is the case, are you willing to argue the possibility that one can live a sinless life contrary to this verse that says that "all have sinned"?
I also showed in Romans 5:18 that if you argue that Adam's sin was imputed to all men, then you also have to believe that the free gift of justification unto life passed on all men through Christ's righteousness.
Are you then arguing that "judgment" can come upon someone who has not sinned?
I am not a "Calvinist." I really have no clue about much of anything that Calvin said or wrote.
If you look back through my posts, you will see many quotations of Scriptures. Most of them are portions of Scriptures with context supplied. I also include Greek words with tenses, moods, voices, and numbers noted.
I guess I cannot dare to make ONE simple, silly little joke without you leaping on it and chomping away at it.
I have "tried" to do so many times, yet later I see you quote the same verses again with your same arguments and interpretations of them as if no one ever responded.
I don't know if I have ever read a Calvinist commentary. What I understand about Scripture comes simply from the Scripture and my own personal study of it in both English and Greek. I used to agree more with your position until I really started reading and studying the Scriptures. It was the Scriptures and only the Scriptures that made me change some of my view.Better dig into your commentaries and find out how Calvinists explain away these easily understood verses.
Robert Snow
New Member
You have the audacity to ask for an apology when you insinuate that those who don't hold to your twisted form of doctrine are following the devils preaching?
How do they say hypocrisy in the Philippines?
Well, I see you and Pinoybaptist do not agree. That is one of the problems when debating with Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers, (or whatever you call yourself), none of you are quite the same, and so can always say that we misrepresent you.
OK, let's discuss this. Let me ask you a question. Were Adam and Eve "able" to sin before they actually sinned?
If so, then how did their nature change after they sinned? And please, if you have scripture I would sincerely be interested in reading it.
Now, I will agree that legally speaking Adam and Eve were innocent and sinless, and afterward they were sinners.
But how did their actual nature or ability to sin or not sin change?
OK, let's discuss this. Let me ask you a question. Were Adam and Eve "able" to sin before they actually sinned?
If so, then how did their nature change after they sinned? And please, if you have scripture I would sincerely be interested in reading it.
Now, I will agree that legally speaking Adam and Eve were innocent and sinless, and afterward they were sinners.
But how did their actual nature or ability to sin or not sin change?
Okay.
First, bear in mind that God created Israel from the loins of Abraham. They were to be His people, a people from among the nations who knew God and to whom the oracles of God (His word) is to be given and kept.
They were to be sanctified to Him, separated for His glory, different from other nations and tribes around them.
He was their Head, their Husband, their Provider, their Sanctifier, and He was their lawmaker and lawgiver.
He gave them moral commands (your ten commandments), civil laws, military laws, societal laws.
The Scripture you like to quote which you use for your doctrine that God does not impute sin on anyone is a command God gave to His chosen people, pertaining to how they are to administer justice amongst themselves, just like commands against incest, homosexuality and all other regulations which are intended to separate them and identify them as His people.
Check out Leviticus 18, particularly verse 24.
There you go.
Rightly divide the word, take a look at the context, and then come back and start over.
How is a doctrine about eternal redemption and eternal salvation that says Christ finished the work He came to do, that is over, finished, kaput, done, period, and He did it with no help from anyone, with no requirement or prerequisite from any of the recipients of salvation, a twisted doctrine, when it places and gives all credit to Christ ?
And how is a doctrine about eternal redemption and eternal salvation that says Christ finished the work He came to do but it is ineffective unless one believes in Him or places trust in Him or confesses Him first a scriptural doctrine when it seeks to share credit with Christ ?
RobertSnow said:
How do they say estupido in English again ?