Jesus Christ: Did He Ever Save Anyone, Really ?

[psalms109:31]

truth

It is always in God's hand. We are saved because not what we done, but because of God's word say's so. Period.

We are the one's who make scripture a lie when we don't believe.

It is His word that will never die my friend. You try and tell me how I should believe what the word world means , but when I look back at it, it hasn't changed it remained the same.

If they leave they were never His in the first place. Many think they are saved, but they have only followed the crowd and have never truly come to Christ.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Those who are in Christ will never leave, so Christ does not have to do the things you think He has to do for them over and over again. My sins which our many (one is enough for death)I deserve nothing but death, but I must believe God word over how I feel about myself and what I deserve.

 

[psalms109:31]

Grace and mercy

I still know about grace and mercy. I owe a debt for my sin which is death. I don't have to pay it God through Jesus did. Jesus suffered for me on the cross and took my place. How can you say that grace and mercy escape's us. He did that for us and our sin not His own, because He had no sin.

 

[kyredneck]

....Calvinism and Biblicalism...

My, my, Perry. That is so original! And clever! We ain't never heard it put quite like that here on the BB before! But you know what they say about cleverness. It begets even more cleverness.

--If God decreed who would be save, then by default God also decreed who would be lost; therefore when the lost go to Hell, Calvinism makes it God's fault, not man's.

Unlike the adherents to Freewillism, the Biblicists believe the Bible when it plainly establishes the right of the potter over the clay. Biblicism does not deny that right as Freewillism does. And the Biblicist would never reply back to God as the Freewillist, and say, 'Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Why didst thou make him thus, or me thus?' And regardless of the relentless accusations of the Freewillists, the Biblicists know there is no unrighteousness with God. God forbid.

--If God's chosen are saved in eternity past then that conflicts with the scriptures that tell us man is born in Adam, in sin; but Calvinism would have us believe the saved are in Christ before they are even born.

Twist it to make it sound ever how you want, there's many who derive great comfort from passages such as these:

'Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.'

--The amillennial avoids and ignores passages dealing with the physical nature of the future Kingdom.
--The Replacement Theologist avoids and ignores passages dealing with God's promise to never forget the seed of Israel.
--And the Calvinist avoids and ignores the above implications of their belief system.

What does the erroneous pre-mil and dispie doctrines have to do with this thread?

 

[olegig]

......

Sorry, I do not have time right now to respond, I will try to get back in a few days.

I have but 2 words of excuse:

grandkids sports :thumbs:

 

[olegig]

Somethings is wrong with my "puter", this was posted to another thread.

 

[kyredneck]

Somethings is wrong with my "puter", this was posted to another thread.

Heheh, the problem is in MY 'puter'. I posted on the wrong trhread which resulted in you responding on the wrong thread and then I reposted on the correct thread. Once again, sorry for causing the confusion. I think I'll go reboot my 'puter' with another cup of coffee.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I have but 2 words of excuse:

grandkids sports :thumbs:

Now if there is any more valid excuse than this, I don't know what it is.

grandkids are a jewel, my friend.
mine calls me "grampa silly", and gets away with it.

 

[Cypress]

deleted.....

 

[Cypress]

deleted....

 

[HankD]

I am sorry, Amy, as much as I respect you, I will have to argue against this by saying study the way "world" is used in Scriptures, and the clue is, that most often it refers to the "nations", the Gentiles, and considering how Jews were racists to the core (Gentiles are dogs, and it is inconceivable to many of them that God should "save" anyone but a Jew)
this Scripture seemly confirms that God's people are in the whole world, including the nations.

Hi Pinoy, let me play the "devil's advocate" here.

Same book, same human and inspired author;

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.​

I believe it could be a safe assumption that here in the same book, same human author, the phrase whole world applies to just that, the whole world without regard to ethnicity.

Also in your summary of a PB doctrine, you didn't mention the only true Trinitarian Universalists in existence (that I know of) the PB "no-hellers" who apply 1 John 2:2 and several other verses to their universalist view such as:

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.​

I wasn't going to comment because our views are in alignment but I just thought I would liven things up a little (not that this thread needs any of that)...

HankD

 

[AresMan]

--If God decreed who would be save, then by default God also decreed who would be lost; therefore when the lost go to Hell, Calvinism makes it God's fault, not man's.

If God had decreed no one to be saved, if He had not sacrificed the Son on the Cross, would it be God's fault for all mankind going to hell, or would it be their fault because they sinned and were justly condemned?

Election has nothing to do with the lost. All are lost by default. Election is God actually saving people who do not deserve it at all. It is pure grace and mercy.

If the governor chooses not to pardon anyone on death row, do they still deserve their sentence? Of course.
If the governor chooses to pardon some on death row, do these people now deserve this pardon? Of course not. It was grace and mercy.
Because the governor pardoned some, do the ones whom he did not pardon no longer deserve their sentence? Of course not. Those whom the governor pardons are recipients of grace and mercy. Those whom the governor does not pardon still justly deserve their sentence. Pardoning anyone neither is unjust toward the rest nor obligates the governor to pardon everyone.

You do not understand grace and mercy if you think that anyone EVER deserves any of it in any respect for any reason.

Any accusation of sovereign election (grace and mercy) making God a "tyrant" or "monster" is flush with a faulty understanding because it either places on God some obligation to remove a just sentence from those who deserve it, or places on man some intrinsic worth or merit whereby God would be unjust to carry out His stated sentence.

ALL are justly condemned by default. ALL deserve hell. God is completely just, good, and righteous to save NNE and to send ALL to hell. Now, on TOP of this is mercy and grace. God had NO obligation whatsoever to save anyone, but He did. He elected to save certain people and He died a substitutionary atonement. They are recipients of grace and mercy. They deserve NONE of this. Those who face their sentence still do so justly as the elect would have. Election (which has only to do with God saving people) changes nothing about the justice of the non-elect.

 

[Winman]

If God had decreed no one to be saved, if He had not sacrificed the Son on the Cross, would it be God's fault for all mankind going to hell, or would it be their fault because they sinned and were justly condemned?

According to your doctrine it would still be God's fault, because it was God who cursed Adam with a fallen nature and this nature was passed down to us. According to Calvinism we are born a sinner and cannot help but sin. It is absolutely beyond our control.

I could see an argument for Adam and Eve going to hell, because they had a free will according to your doctrine and had the choice whether to sin or not. But no one since then has had a choice in the matter if your doctrine is true (which it is not). It is not just to condemn someone for being a sinner if they are born that way.

Even man's law recognizes that a person must have control to be held responsible. I was watching one of the court shows the other day, and a fellow had an epileptic seizure which caused him to crash into another car. This particular fellow did not know he had epilepsy, although he thought he had one seizure when he was very young. The judge explained that if a person was not aware that he had a medical disorder and this condition caused him to have an accident that he could not be held liable under the law. In other words, if you were driving down the highway and had a heart attack, but had not before been aware you had a heart problem, you could not be held responsible if this heart attack caused you to crash. However, in this case the doctor's report showed the young man had had several seizures when he was young and there was reason to believe he had a medical disorder that he should have had checked out. So, in this case he was held liable.

If we are born sinners, then sinning is out of our control, we cannot be held responsible for simply doing what we cannot help but do.

 

[psalms109:31]

All

Jesus has died for those who are in Christ, so yes Jesus doesn't have to die over and over again.

2 Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

So God can continue what His word says to include those who have heard the Gospel of thier salvation having believed.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

We see here Paul saying this.

1 Timothy 2:
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

Then Paul continually talking about everyone those in the above scripture

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Then apparently people didn't believe him either and then say's

7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

[kyredneck]

.....Also in your summary of a PB doctrine, you didn't mention the only true Trinitarian Universalists in existence (that I know of) the PB "no-hellers" who apply 1 John 2:2 and several other verses to their universalist view such as:

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.​

I wasn't going to comment because our views are in alignment but I just thought I would liven things up a little (not that this thread needs any of that)...

HankD

Hank, FYI, in my area there is a rift in the PBs between mainstream and no-hellers, but by no means is it to the point of non fellowship. In fact, there are mainstream PB Churches that will allow no-hellers to preach with the stipulation that they don't preach no-hell doctrine. And, personally, some of the most spiritual, uplifting sermons I've ever heard came from the mouths of no-hellers.

 

[pinoybaptist]

According to your doctrine it would still be God's fault, because it was God who cursed Adam with a fallen nature and this nature was passed down to us.

Winman, can you copy and paste that post where your hated Calvinists said "God cursed Adam with a fallen nature" ? If you cannot find such a post, and I doubt there are any Calvinist or DoG on this board that said that (but I will give you the benefit of a doubt as well) then I would advise you cease and desist from saying this, and maybe ask you to apologize for saying it.

<snipped>
But no one since then has had a choice in the matter if your doctrine is true (which it is not). It is not just to condemn someone for being a sinner if they are born that way.

The sin of Adam, which results in death, both spiritual and physical, is imputed on his race, and that includes you, and me. Because of imputation, all mankind is deemed as having sinned and in condemnation of sin.
If you think it is unjust, then on what basis do you think it just that God should impute Christ's righteousness on you ? Shouldn't it be equally just for God to demand that you be as sinless as Christ ? Or did you earn the right to be counted righteous and therefore are deserving of heaven and of God's love ?

 

[psalms109:31]

Hank, FYI, in my area there is a rift in the PBs between mainstream and no-hellers, but by no means is it to the point of non fellowship. In fact, there are mainstream PB Churches that will allow no-hellers to preach with the stipulation that they don't preach no-hell doctrine. And, personally, some of the most spiritual, uplifting sermons I've ever heard came from the mouths of no-hellers.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Eternal condemnation is an on going thing, just like eternal life.

 

[Winman]

Well, I can show several Calvinists who say God is the cause of sin. Here is one I have shown before, Dr. Samuel Hopkins

"God does superintend and direct with regard to every instance of sin. He orders how much sin there shall be, and effectually restrains and prevents all that which he would not have take place. Men are, with respect to this, absolutely under his direction and control."

"Something must have taken place previous to his sin, and in which the sinner had no hand with which his sin was so connected as to render it certain that sin would take place just as it does;"

I will find more, there are plenty.

 

[kyredneck]

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Eternal condemnation is an on going thing, just like eternal life.

I'm not sure which angle or whether it's both you're coming from, so I'll comment on both.

I don't think the no-hellers we're referring to fall into the category of Gal 1:8 which is referring to a return to 'the Jew's religion' (another gospel, law).

And, I'm not a no-heller. I don't know how they get around Lu 16:23,24.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Well, I can show several Calvinists who say God is the cause of sin. Here is one I have shown before, Dr. Samuel Hopkins





I will find more, there are plenty.

Where in these quotes you provided did these Calvinists say that God cursed Adam with sin ?
And also, how do you know that all Calvinists believe God is the cause of sin ?

He is not.
They are as much in error as others who say that if somebody farts God is the cause of it.

 

[Winman]

Here is a quote from Calvin that says God is completely responsible for man's depraved condition and responsible for all sin.

“He has plenty of reasons for comfort as he realises that the devil and all the ungodly are reined in by God, so that they cannot conceive, plan or carry out any crime, unless God allows it, indeed commands it. They are not only in bondage to him, but are forced to serve him. It is the Lord’s prerogative to enable the enemy’s rage and to control it at will, and it is in his power to decide how far and how long it may last, so that wicked men cannot break free and do exactly what they want....” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch.17, Sect. 10

More to come....