Jesus Christ: The Atonement For The Human Race

[Saved-By-Grace]

You gotta learn the difference between a text and a manuscript. If not you will not be able to keep up with the discussion.

I most certainly do! Text, like W&H, Tregellis, UBS, etc. Manuscript, Patristic, early versions evidence is far more important of what some text says. Take a look at 1 Timothy 3:16 in the "texts", and then look at the Greek Church fathers, and you will see the difference. Like the testimony of Ignatius, (A.D.35-108) who wrote, "εν σαρκι γενομενοϛ Θεοϛ", and "Θεου ανθρωπινωϛ ϕανερουμενου".

 

[Iconoclast]

agedman,

There are those who place emphasis upon a limit of the blood declaring that it was shed only for the elect.

Yes...those persons are called the Apostles and Prophets...eph2:20

Such an emphasis. in my opinion, is unfortunate and, in my opinion, a view that is inconsistent with the Scriptures.

Good thing scripture over rules opinions.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Saved-By-Grace

but, only to those who will "accept" what Jesus has done for them, as Paul says in Romans 3
To those who would "accept" this "gift of atoning sacrifice"

That unscriptural language is not found in the NT.

These people do not exist...instead we do find...WE are made accepted in the Beloved
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[Iconoclast]

It is the provision for the sins of the human race. The application is only after the sinner repents and believes in the Gospel

The bible does describe it as a random provision that is only potential, but rather an actual and perfect removal of sins reigning power.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

"Saved-By-Grace


That unscriptural language is not found in the NT.

These people do not exist...instead we do find...WE are made accepted in the Beloved
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Is the Bible wrong when it says:

"The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life" (Revelation 22:17)

“Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.” (Isaiah 1:18-20)

"And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:1-4)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16)

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1)

"knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires...The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" (2 Peter 3:3, 9)

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The bible does describe it as a random provision that is only potential, but rather an actual and perfect removal of sins reigning power.

and your Scripture references are?

 

[Iconoclast]

"Saved-By-Grace,

Is the Bible wrong when it says:

The bible is not wrong, your understanding is way off however

"The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life" (Revelation 22:17)

Good verse...All God effectually works in will come to Him...

“

Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.” (Isaiah 1:18-20)

rebellious Israel was being warned by God of certain doom if the remained in rebellion.

"And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)

Again spoken to a typically redeemed people urging obedience.

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)

The only ones coming are those drawn by the Spirit...

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:1-4)

yes...all kinds of men, kings, those in authority

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16)

Actually...everyone believing...

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1)

Yes Jesus bought the rights to all men at the cross:

John 17 King James Version (KJV)
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

"knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires...The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" (2 Peter 3:3, 9)

Every single person spoken of here will be saved, no more, no less...God has decreed , destined and purposed it...

 

[Aaron]

“My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the Atonement for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world” (1 John 2:1-2)

“ἱλασμός” (Meaning from Greek/Hebrew Authorities)

“expiation, atonement, propitiation, sin-offering Lv 25,9; forgiveness Ps 129(130),4”

(Johan Lust, Erik Eynikel, Katrin Hauspie; A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint)

The LXX use for the Hebrew “kippur”, which denotes,

“redemptions, atonements” (Gesenius, Hebrew Lexicon)

“of atonement” (Brown, Driver, Briggs)

“atonement, sin offering” (H G Liddell, R Scott)

“means of atonement” (G W H Lampe, Patristic Greek Lexicon)

“Atoning sacrifice” (V Verbrugge, The NIV Theological Dictionary)

“A suitable English translation for this word (ἱλασμός, hilasmos) is a difficult and even controversial problem. “Expiation,” “propitiation,” and “atonement” have all been suggested.” (NET Bible)

“atoning sacrifice” (Word Bible Commentary) . . . . snip

Here we go again.

As to the Atonement: On the Day of Atonement, which was the figure thereof, where was Egypt's stone on the breastplate of the high priest? Edom's?

It doesn't get much more plain than that. A child can grasp it.

And so you present a weak atonement, that, to be made effectual, needs the addition of the will of man.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Here we go again.

As to the Atonement: On the Day of Atonement, which was the figure thereof, where was Egypt's stone on the breastplate of the high priest? Edom's?

It doesn't get much more plain than that. A child can grasp it.

And so you present a weak atonement, that, to be made effectual, needs the addition of the will of man.

how about an adult response then?

 

[Van]

Atonement and reconciliation are two completely different aspects of the death of Jesus Christ. While Jesus has "atoned" for the sins of the whole world; no one can be "reconciled" to Him till they are saved and become "one" with Him, which is through repentance and faith

The problem is that some use "atonement" to mean both "completely different aspects" thus if we used terms like "propitiation" for providing by His sacrifice the means of salvation for the sins of the whole world, and reconciliation for being transferred into Christ, the muddle would be avoided.

But thanks for your clear statement of your intended meanings,.

 

[Darrell C]

I do not think that "atonement" and "reconciliation" is one and the same thing. The world has been "atoned" for by the death of Jesus Christ, Who has died for their sins, once and for all. However, it is only after the sinner has been "born again", that they are "reconciled" to God.

Technically they are not the same, because one speaks of paying the penalty of our sin and the other speaks of our relationship with God being restored.

But we cannot divorce these any more than we can divorce regeneration from being eternally indwelt. Technically those are two separate things but they go hand in hand.

"The" Atonement is what reconciles men to God. When atonement is made, men are reconciled to God. They are simultaneous elements of the same process.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Atonement in the Old Testament "covered" the Sins of God's People--already reconciled People.

No man was reconciled to God prior to Christ dying.


God bless.

 

[Van]

One part of the muddle when mixing the two aspects is the idea that when Christ died, the penalty for sins of the Elect (past present and future) were paid at that time, thus the atonement is limited to the Elect. Therefore, PSA is a Trojan horse for limited atonement.

This view (PSA and Limited Atonement), of course is unbiblical nonsense.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The problem is that some use "atonement" to mean both "completely different aspects" thus if we used terms like "propitiation" for providing by His sacrifice the means of salvation for the sins of the whole world, and reconciliation for being transferred into Christ, the muddle would be avoided.

But thanks for your clear statement of your intended meanings,.

Yes, I have seen the problem in trying to define doctrines using English terms, which are often so different to what the Hebrew and Greek actually mean

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Is the Bible wrong when it says:

"The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life" (Revelation 22:17)

“Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.” (Isaiah 1:18-20)

"And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:1-4)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16)

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1)

"knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires...The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" (2 Peter 3:3, 9)

I think perhaps that you do not understand what Calvinism is. Do you imagine that perhaps we believe that whoever believes in Him will still perish, or that God wishes that many should perish?

Here are the facts. I have given this verse at least half a dozen times, and I apologize to those who are fed up with reading it.

John 6:37. 'All that the Father has given Me will come to Me.......' Here is the particular Redemption. God the Father has given to the Son a people to redeem, which He has done at measureless cost and not one of those whom He has redeemed will be lost.
'.......And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' It does seem to me sometimes that Arminians are of the impression that someone might trust in Christ for salvation and yet be turned away from heaven because he is not one of the elect. That is never going to happen under any circumstances. 'Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.' But the sad fact is that they simply will not come 'unless the Father who sent Me draws them.' This is not because God keeps them out, but because they have wicked unbelieving hearts, just like you and I did before the Lord graciously gave us new birth (Titus 3:3-7). 'Whoever is thirsty, let him come, and whoever wills let him take the free gift of the water of life.' Amen! But when the 'whoever' comes, he will find that he has only comes because God has set His love upon him in eternity past, has written his name in the book of life, given him to thee Son to redeem, and has opened his heart to respond to the message of the Gospel.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Therefore, PSA is a Trojan horse for limited atonement.

John and Charles Wesley taught Penal Substitution.

 

[Yeshua1]

you can't have it both ways! If, as you say, that it is God Who "enables" the elect to respond to His Call; then it can only be, that He does not do the same for those who are non-elect. In which case they are not really "rejecting" Jesus, nor be accountable, as they have not been given any opportunity to respond to the Gospel, as any aid from the Holy Spirit, which the elect have, is withheld. They cannot reject or accept, as their "wills" are in "bondage" as some claim, and they cannot.

ALL sinners are accountable to God for being those who reject Jesus, as they are doing what they really wanted to do.
God shows mercy upon those whom He desires too, and does not show that upon others, is God at fault for how we all hate Him and reject Jesus>
Is God wrong to save out His elect from among all sinners than?

 

[Yeshua1]

that is not what we are talking about. It is whether ALL who have the Gospel preached to them, have the "ability" given by the Holy Spirit by His convicting, to either accept or reject the Gospel of salvation. If God "regenerates" the elect, and thereby enabling them to accept the Gospel, then the fact that the non-elect are "passed by", and do not have the same, can only mean that the Gospel that is preached to the non-elect, is both pointless and insincere, as God knows before that they can not respond, as He has made sure of this. This, my friend is a monstrous doctrine!

the fault not with God as to them staying lost, but the sole fault remains within themselves!
NONE of us deserve to have final destiny other than hell, correct?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I think perhaps that you do not understand what Calvinism is. Do you imagine that perhaps we believe that whoever believes in Him will still perish, or that God wishes that many should perish?

Here are the facts. I have given this verse at least half a dozen times, and I apologize to those who are fed up with reading it.

John 6:37. 'All that the Father has given Me will come to Me.......' Here is the particular Redemption. God the Father has given to the Son a people to redeem, which He has done at measureless cost and not one of those whom He has redeemed will be lost.
'.......And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' It does seem to me sometimes that Arminians are of the impression that someone might trust in Christ for salvation and yet be turned away from heaven because he is not one of the elect. That is never going to happen under any circumstances. 'Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.' But the sad fact is that they simply will not come 'unless the Father who sent Me draws them.' This is not because God keeps them out, but because they have wicked unbelieving hearts, just like you and I did before the Lord graciously gave us new birth (Titus 3:3-7). 'Whoever is thirsty, let him come, and whoever wills let him take the free gift of the water of life.' Amen! But when the 'whoever' comes, he will find that he has only comes because God has set His love upon him in eternity past, has written his name in the book of life, given him to thee Son to redeem, and has opened his heart to respond to the message of the Gospel.

and your point being?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

the fault not with God as to them staying lost, but the sole fault remains within themselves!
NONE of us deserve to have final destiny other than hell, correct?

you guys simply do NOT understand the Bible on salvation!