Jesus Marvelled At Unblief! Why?

[Aaron]

That which is of flesh is flesh and that which is of spirit is spirit. Two different things. With the spiritual rebirth beforehand one can with the mind, think, reason form opinions and decide. A physical baby in the womb can do none of those things. You can't see that they're not totally different?

Paul said the carnal mind, with all of its thinking and reasoning and forming opinions and decision making is at enmity God, and cannot be subject to His law. Giving you a say in the matter will always result in the rejection of the Gospel.

Nope you're failing to understand how biblical wording is used. God did not say in Gen 25 that he hated the individual Esau [.....blah, blah blah].

Then God didn't choose Abraham the individual, and that's baloney. But you haven't escaped the difficulty, because the individual Esau was rejected. He was profane, but Jacob was liar, no less a child of the Devil by nature than Esau. But so that the purposes of God according to election might stand, God had mercy on the one, and hardened the other.

Did God harden Pharaoh's heart, or did Pharaoh harden his own heart?

 

[Aaron]

Hold it now. That was the point of another Calvinist on here which who said we loved God because he first loved us. I Jn 4: 19-21 If that's not being lovely then what is it?

LOL. Actually it was St. John that said that, but he wasn't saying that men by nature respond to the love of God. He said in His Gospel that men hate the light that came into the world. Paul said said men can't respond by nature.

We don't love God because we think by nature that He is lovely. By nature we hate Him. We love God because He first loved us and transformed us.

 

[Rockson]

Paul said the carnal mind, with all of its thinking and reasoning....

Hold it , hold it, hold it! You put down in a quotation block my statement but you changed it and added words....You shouldn't be allowed to do that. What you put down of mine in a quotation block below..

Nope you're failing to understand how biblical wording is used. God did not say in Gen 25 that he hated the individual Esau.....blah, blah blah.


What I actually said in my post,

Nope you're failing to understand how biblical wording is used. God did not say in Gen 25 that he hated the individual Esau.....it was talking about the descendant line.


If you want to be demeaning to me and give a blah, blah, blah, go right ahead....but please refrain from putting it in a quotation block...not fair!

 

[Reformed]

Yes Dave but still falls far short of answering why he was surprised and marveled at their unbelief.

Jesus was not surprised. Jesus was impressed (in a negative way) by their unbelief. That is the gist of the passage. When I was a boy I got into the pantry and made a mess of the kitchen by emptying out a 5 lb. bag of flour. I still remember my mother saying, "Wow! Look at that mess!" Years later we both had a good laugh over the incident. I asked my mother if she was surprised by my behavior as a child and she said, "No. You were a typical boy. I expected you to make messes, although some of them were doozies." The difference between Jesus and my mother is that Jesus has perfect knowledge which is part of his omniscience. My mother lacks that attribute. Jesus is fully man and fully God, As such, He has an emotive side that the Father does not. Jesus' emotions do not limit His omniscience. Just because He was impressed at the level of wholesale unbelief does not mean He did not know about it beforehand.

 

[Aaron]

Hold it , hold it, hold it! You put down in a quotation block my statement but you changed it and added words....You shouldn't be allowed to do that. What you put down of mine in a quotation block below..

Nope you're failing to understand how biblical wording is used. God did not say in Gen 25 that he hated the individual Esau.....blah, blah blah.


What I actually said in my post,

Nope you're failing to understand how biblical wording is used. God did not say in Gen 25 that he hated the individual Esau.....it was talking about the descendant line.


If you want to be demeaning to me and give a blah, blah, blah, go right ahead....but please refrain from putting it in a quotation block...not fair!

Prefer ellipses?

LOL. As if anyone can't click the link in the quote to jump to the original post and see that the gist is there.

So God hates Esau's descendants. You still haven't escaped your difficulty.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Prefer ellipses?

LOL. As if anyone can't click the link in the quote to jump to the original post and see that the gist is there.

So God hates Esau's descendants. You still haven't escaped your difficulty.

God hates the whole Edomite ppl if he is correct.

 

[atpollard]

See this is the attitude that was displayed by White when he debated flowers. White lost just because of his attitude alone. Just because someone does not agree with you doesn't make them like a blind man. Such claims are arrogant, ungodly, and unbecoming a Christian.

I just finished watching that debate two days ago (I only recently heard about it). Flowers raised some interesting points that I really do want to pursue on my own (like the concept of a 'works' Israel vs 'faith' Israel typology throughout scripture), however Flowers presented a talk on anti-Predestination in a debate on Romans 9 with little exegesis on the actual English and Greek text of Romans 9. Could you summarize Flowers' exegesis on Romans 9 from the debate for me?

 

[atpollard]

"how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

The question is, 'Who will ask?' and God tells us the answer:

• [Romans 3:10-11 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;"
• [Psalm 14:1-3 NASB] 1 For the choir director. [A Psalm] of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. 2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
• [Psalm 53:1-3 NASB] 1 For the choir director; according to Mahalath. A Maskil of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good. 2 God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God. 3 Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Hence the reality:

• [John 3:3-8 NLT] 3 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God." 4 "What do you mean?" exclaimed Nicodemus. "How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" 5 Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don't be surprised when I say, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit."
• [Ephesians 2:1-10 NLT] 1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else. 4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

 

[Rockson]

Paul said the carnal mind, with all of its thinking and reasoning and forming opinions and decision making is at enmity God, and cannot be subject to His law. Giving you a say in the matter will always result in the rejection of the Gospel.

No it's only if the unsaved still chooses to stay in the carnal mode. Such is why one needs to repent, which means an about face of life. You don't get your about face of life and then repent? What need would there be to do so then? And God has commanded ALL men to repent. Why bother giving the command if it wasn't possible to do so?

But you haven't escaped the difficulty, because the individual Esau was rejected. He was profane, but Jacob was liar, no less a child of the Devil by nature than Esau. But so that the purposes of God according to election might stand, God had mercy on the one, and hardened the other.

What? Were do you read that God hardened Esau?

Did God harden Pharaoh's heart, or did Pharaoh harden his own heart?

Both but in the most real sense it was Pharaoh who did. Pharaoh had PRIDE. Things that God said to him made Pharaoh mad. He didn't have to due to his free will but he did. Being made mad, offended or hardened are all the same thing. If what I'm saying to you now makes you mad well...I made you mad BUT...in the most real sense you chose to become mad, or hardened. I couldn't make you.

 

[Rockson]

Prefer ellipses?

LOL. As if anyone can't click the link in the quote to jump to the original post and see that the gist is there.

You don't know they'll do that and the words, blah, blah, blah you inserted makes it appear I put it in there and it shows lack of respect for other scriptures they might think I'm using to back my case. Much appreciated if you WON'T do this again. Thanks

 

[Rockson]

So God hates Esau's descendants. You still haven't escaped your difficulty.

But God doesn't "hate" Esau's decedents that is in the way you're trying to force the term to mean. You're missing the spirit or the essence of how things are meant to be understood. God showed preference to Jacob's decedents when it came to which line Christ would come through. Consider the word "hate" in Lk14:26

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, and even his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Lk 14:26

So does God want us to "hate" our Fathers and Mothers? How could it be for it says we're to honor our parents with love and goodness. Consider if we're to love our enemies Matt 5:44 how much more our parents? No...you must capture the spirit of how the text is meant to be taken. What Jesus is saying about parents is when push comes to shove when God has expressed his will if you hold your parents opinions over God's you cannot be his disciple. Less preference to parents when it comes to these things is what Jesus meant by "hate". You'll find the greek word "hate" in Mt 5:44 is also the same greek word in Rom 9:13

Greek word "hate" ==> μισέω miseó

Definition: I hate, detest, love less, esteem less.

Well why did God esteem less the Edomites. For the reason they were more ungodly than the descendants of Jacob. (That's something my reader can study out) So what's the significance of Gen 25 where it states about Jacob/Esau the elder will serve the younger and Rom 9 states before they had did anything wrong. Even that doesn't mean the preference wasn't because of the right and wrong because of what the descendants did....it merely means it's shows and reveals God's greatness of knowing things by foreknowledge. God is outside of time and can see all things.

 

[utilyan]

The question is, 'Who will ask?' and God tells us the answer:

• [Romans 3:10-11 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;"
• [Psalm 14:1-3 NASB] 1 For the choir director. [A Psalm] of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. 2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
• [Psalm 53:1-3 NASB] 1 For the choir director; according to Mahalath. A Maskil of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good. 2 God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God. 3 Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Hence the reality:

• [John 3:3-8 NLT] 3 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God." 4 "What do you mean?" exclaimed Nicodemus. "How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" 5 Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don't be surprised when I say, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit."
• [Ephesians 2:1-10 NLT] 1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else. 4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

"how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

So the answer to Jesus statement?

NOT AT ALL.

 

[atpollard]

"how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

So the answer to Jesus statement?

NOT AT ALL.

I'm sorry, should I then just get my sharpie and cross out John 3, Romans 3 and Ephesians 2 since the Apostles just got all that stuff wrong?

I didn't give you my opinions, I presented God's words in context.
(You not only didn't bother to identify your verse, you only quoted a "phrase" ripped out of a larger sentence ... You did not even quote the whole sentence!)

 

[Revmitchell]

I just finished watching that debate two days ago (I only recently heard about it). Flowers raised some interesting points that I really do want to pursue on my own (like the concept of a 'works' Israel vs 'faith' Israel typology throughout scripture), however Flowers presented a talk on anti-Predestination in a debate on Romans 9 with little exegesis on the actual English and Greek text of Romans 9. Could you summarize Flowers' exegesis on Romans 9 from the debate for me?

Sure, he presented context before going directly into Romans 9. It is a mistake to single Romans 9 out and stick only within that chapter since it is in the middle of the book. Context of what Paul intended in Romans 9 needs to first be revealed. Isolating Romans 9 cannot do that. Romans 9 cannot be understood correctly in that format. In fact during the discussions on what they would be debating White agreed with Flowers on the way he handled that chapter and then White complained in the debate when Flowers actually did what they agreed he would do.

Flowers dealt with the judicial hardening of the Israel. Yes this is from Chapter 9. He starts out in vs. 30-32 and then goes back to vs.1 and walks everyone straight down verse by verse. He makes the case that Chapter 9 not all about the world with regard to salvation but it is specifically talking about how the hardening of Israel lead to the grafting in of the gentiles. The gentiles are brought into the chapter at vs. 24 and not before.

 

[utilyan]

I'm sorry, should I then just get my sharpie and cross out John 3, Romans 3 and Ephesians 2 since the Apostles just got all that stuff wrong?

I didn't give you my opinions, I presented God's words in context.
(You not only didn't bother to identify your verse, you only quoted a "phrase" ripped out of a larger sentence ... You did not even quote the whole sentence!)

This is the sermon on the mount, His audience is not saved, his audience are not believers.

This is the context:

7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9“Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10“Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.


If you already saved, you already have the holy spirit, already elect and are regenerated, you wouldn't ask for the holy spirit, you already got it.

 

[Aaron]

Look, we can go round and round. Here's what it boils down to. In your view, the people who are saved are better people than the ones who aren't saved. They are less under sin than others. God loves them equally, and did equal things for them. That means the defining impetus is not the grace of God, but the inherent goodness in an individual which ultimately compels one to come down on the side of God. That flies in the face off all that is written of Christ and His work.

What a weak salvation. What miserable comfort. What tenuous assurance. You call that Good News?

No it's only if the unsaved still chooses to stay in the carnal mode. Such is why one needs to repent, which means an about face of life. You don't get your about face of life and then repent? What need would there be to do so then? And God has commanded ALL men to repent. Why bother giving the command if it wasn't possible to do so?



What? Were do you read that God hardened Esau?



Both but in the most real sense it was Pharaoh who did. Pharaoh had PRIDE. Things that God said to him made Pharaoh mad. He didn't have to due to his free will but he did. Being made mad, offended or hardened are all the same thing. If what I'm saying to you now makes you mad well...I made you mad BUT...in the most real sense you chose to become mad, or hardened. I couldn't make you.

But God doesn't "hate" Esau's decedents that is in the way you're trying to force the term to mean. You're missing the spirit or the essence of how things are meant to be understood. God showed preference to Jacob's decedents when it came to which line Christ would come through. Consider the word "hate" in Lk14:26

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, and even his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Lk 14:26

So does God want us to "hate" our Fathers and Mothers? How could it be for it says we're to honor our parents with love and goodness. Consider if we're to love our enemies Matt 5:44 how much more our parents? No...you must capture the spirit of how the text is meant to be taken. What Jesus is saying about parents is when push comes to shove when God has expressed his will if you hold your parents opinions over God's you cannot be his disciple. Less preference to parents when it comes to these things is what Jesus meant by "hate". You'll find the greek word "hate" in Mt 5:44 is also the same greek word in Rom 9:13

Greek word "hate" ==> μισέω miseó

Definition: I hate, detest, love less, esteem less.

Well why did God esteem less the Edomites. For the reason they were more ungodly than the descendants of Jacob. (That's something my reader can study out) So what's the significance of Gen 25 where it states about Jacob/Esau the elder will serve the younger and Rom 9 states before they had did anything wrong. Even that doesn't mean the preference wasn't because of the right and wrong because of what the descendants did....it merely means it's shows and reveals God's greatness of knowing things by foreknowledge. God is outside of time and can see all things.

 

[Rockson]

Look, we can go round and round. Here's what it boils down to. In your view, the people who are saved are better people than the ones who aren't saved.

Absolute nonsense! All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God! I've never stated otherwise!

If you're trying to say for the reason some chose to humble themselves before God and receive and walk in his grace then yes certain numbers are receiving grace and goodness because of their actions. How many scriptures out of hundreds I could give which would show God shows favor to ones YES BECAUSE OF THEIR ACTIONS....but you'd just reject them all?

Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Gen 4:3-7

So did God show favor to one over another because of what THEY DID by their actions? YES! The Bible says so! Can individuals today carry out actions whereby they can receive the grace of salvation BY THEIR ACTIONS? Yes. They can humble themselves and repent. Does that mean they're better people than the ones who don't? Well I'll say one thing because they chose God through an act of their will they have a lot more in common with me than the others who refuse to and as far as I'm concerned they're more of a joy to be around.

 

[Aaron]

It's up to the individual to choose, right? Why does one choose righteousness and another does not?

Absolute nonsense! All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God! I've never stated otherwise!

If you're trying to say for the reason some chose to humble themselves before God and receive and walk in his grace then yes certain numbers are receiving grace and goodness because of their actions. How many scriptures out of hundreds I could give which would show God shows favor to ones YES BECAUSE OF THEIR ACTIONS....but you'd just reject them all?

Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Gen 4:3-7

So did God show favor to one over another because of what THEY DID by their actions? YES! The Bible says so! Can individuals today carry out actions whereby they can receive the grace of salvation BY THEIR ACTIONS? Yes. They can humble themselves and repent. Does that mean they're better people than the ones who don't? Well I'll say one thing because they chose God through an act of their will they have a lot more in common with me than the others who refuse to and as far as I'm concerned they're more of a joy to be around.

 

[Rockson]

It's up to the individual to choose, right?

Why does one choose righteousness and another does not?

Ask the ones who are making the choices.

I've asked ones who have made their choice and they all have different answers.

 

[Aaron]

Ask the ones who are making the choices.

I've asked ones who have made their choice and they all have different answers.

You're copping out. There's only one true answer. If it's up to the individual, it's because one, completely on the basis of his own inherent goodness, has more love for God than another.