Jesus Repudiates Mariolatry

[Agnus_Dei]

"but also offering our prayers to God"
Don't give the "look for yourself line."
Give the evidence. There is no such scene.

Why of course there is, Revelation 5. Here we see the elders and beasts around the throne of God offering incense which are the prayers of the saints. Apparently DHK, the “saints” mentioned in verse 8, aren’t there and it’s the elders that are presenting the saints prayers to God.

So yes, those in heaven do intercede by offering prayers to God.

ICXC NIKA
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[DHK]

Why of course there is, Revelation 5. Here we see the elders and beasts around the throne of God offering incense which are the prayers of the saints. Apparently DHK, the “saints” mentioned in verse 8, aren’t there and it’s the elders that are presenting the saints prayers to God.

So yes, those in heaven do intercede by offering prayers to God.

ICXC NIKA
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Oh but of course. You like to put your own spin on things don't you.
Here is the verse:

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

What do these elders not saints, have?
They have harps, and golden vials. The vials are full of odours which are said to be the prayers of the saints. There is no intercession here, none whatsoever.

Now compare Scripture with Scripture:
Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

--It is the angel that offers the prayers of the saints, not the elders. The elders simply held them. Again, there is no evidence that the elders were even saints. In the previous scene if the elders were saints (supposedly 12 of them representing the 12 apostles, was John looking at himself--Hi John, Good to see myself!) Nonsense! They were said to be elders. Don't read into Scripture that which is not there. There were also four beasts. What were the beasts: lions, tigers, elephants, and crocodiles? Is that what you read into Scripture? The fact is it doesn't say. You can't read into Scripture something that isn't there. Where the Scripture is silent we must be silent. If it doesn't say they are saints, then we must not assume they are saints.
However, the passage is chapter 8 does inform us that it was an angel. An angel is not a saint.

And what he gives or "offers" is those prayers that have already been prayed by those believers on earth. There again, is no intercession on the part of the angel, none whatsoever. He simply gives them in the form of incence to the Lord. They are symbolically accepted by the Lord from the angel. BTW, have you ever seen a prayer? Prayer is verbal communication from the heart of man to the Lord. Do you actually see what is in the heart of man? Did the angel collect verbal words from the hearts of men and women?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Even better DHK, we have angles AND elders offering our prayers to God. Not only do we ask Mary and the Saints in heaven to pray for us, we also ask the...angles as well!

BTW, have you ever seen a prayer? Prayer is verbal communication from the heart of man to the Lord. Do you actually see what is in the heart of man? Did the angel collect verbal words from the hearts of men and women?

Can God make a rock so big He can't move it....

ICXC NIKA
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[DHK]

Even better DHK, we have angles AND elders offering our prayers to God. Not only do we ask Mary and the Saints in heaven to pray for us, we also ask the...angles as well!

You still don't get it do you? There is no intercession involved. It is a picture. The whole book is highly symbolic. The prayers, as are all prayers have already been prayed and were prayed to God and God alone. It is a picture of those prayers that that angel has. He does no interceding. There is none there. It is a symbolic picture. I quote to you Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown, that you can get a better understanding than I am giving to you:

prayers of saints--as the angel offers their prayers (Re 8:3) with incense (compare Ps 141:2). This gives not the least sanction to Rome's dogma of our praying to saints. Though they be employed by God in some way unknown to us to present our prayers (nothing is said of their interceding for us), yet we are told to pray only to Him (Re 19:10; 22:8-9). Their own employment is praise (whence they all have harps): ours is prayer.

I hope that makes it clearer.

Can God make a rock so big He can't move it....
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To answer that atheist's argument (why are you resorting to the arguments of atheists? Is that what your religion is?), I refer to another scholar:

Sahakian and Sahakian point out that this sort of logical argument is logically inconsistent. It is known as the fallacy of contradictory premises.
...When the contradictory premises are present in an argument, one premise cancels out the other. It is impossible for one or the other of the two premises to be true, but not for both to be simultaneously true. Note the contradictory premises in the following questions: “If God is all-powerful, can he put himself out of existence, then come to life with twice the power he had originally?” “Can God make a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it?” “Can God make a round square?” “What would happen if an irrestible force met an immovable object?” (One student’s answer: “An inconceivable smash!”) (Sahakian and Sahakian, Ideas, p. 23).

Again why are you employing the arguments of atheists, unless of course you believe the dogma of the atheists?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

There is no intercession involved. It is a picture. The whole book is highly symbolic....It is a picture of those prayers that that angel has. He does no interceding. There is none there. It is a symbolic picture.

Ohhh, so now DHK wants to play the ‘symbolic’ card, how fitting.

I quote to you Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown, that you can get a better understanding than I am giving to you:

No thanks DHK, I’d much rather see what the Church has always believed and taught concerning the subject from the very beginning.

ICXC NIKA
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[DHK]

Ohhh, so now DHK wants to play the ‘symbolic’ card, how fitting.

There is something wrong if you don't see symbolism in an apocalyptic book such as the Book of Revelation.

No thanks DHK, I’d much rather see what the Church has always believed and taught concerning the subject from the very beginning.

Please be more accurate. It is not the Church but Your Church that you prefer to believe. It is arrogant for you to say that the churches throughout the ages believe just like you--arrogant indeed. Do you have evidence?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Blessings Bound: But still St. Gregory isn’t contemplating that Mary is our Redeemer. It was Christ that bore the sins of the world as He was nailed upon that Roman Cross. It was Christ that conquered death! Not Mary or any angle or Saint for that matter.

Mary certainly participates in Salvation History, in that Mary alone cooperated fully with God in giving flesh to God in that He may become the Son of man and men the sons of God. And we in the Orthodox Church recognize Mary for this and is thus an example for all mankind.

So yes, Mary does stand alone between God and the whole human race. For it was Mary the Virgin alone that gave flesh to God! So with that, we venerate her and refer to her as More honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, who, a Virgin, gave birth to God the Word, you, are truly the mother of God, we magnify.

ICXC NIKA
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Your post is pure blasphemy, Agnus.

 

[bound]

Blessings Bound: But still St. Gregory isn’t contemplating that Mary is our Redeemer. It was Christ that bore the sins of the world as He was nailed upon that Roman Cross. It was Christ that conquered death! Not Mary or any angle or Saint for that matter.

Blessings right back at you Agnus_Dei,

I'm not trying to affirm what St. Gregory did or did not believe with regard to Mary as 'our Redeemer'... You seem to be hung up on that for some reason but I fail to see where 'I' have suggested this.

I have only argued that the Early Church Fathers, Church Tradition, Councils and the Liturgies of the Early Church expresses a profound degree of adoration for Mary which would appear on first blush to challenge the unique role of Her Son Jesus Christ, if we don't see Him 'as God reconciling the world to Himself'.

Clearly Mary isn't 'God reconciling the world to Himself'. Regardless, Baptists are very sensitive with securing Christ's unique role as our 'redeemer' and feel that such adoration of Mary, as we find in the Early Church, threaten God. I find a great deal of similarity in dialogues with Muslims and the adoration we Christians have for Christ. They too are very sensitive with securing God's unique role as our 'redeemer' and feel such adoration of Jesus, as we find in the Christian Church, threaten God.

Ultimately, if you are going to try to appease everyone who cries foul over who you venerate you're going to be left with no one...

I'm personally not too concerned with veneration of Mary. Clearly it was the practice of the Early Church as is evidenced in the Divine Liturgies. I ultimately recognize the unity of the Heavenly Family 'in communion' with and in God. I can appreciate the views of my peers but ultimately I beleive the consenual teaching of the Church mounts an impressive refutation to this modern exegete.

Mary certainly participates in Salvation History, in that Mary alone cooperated fully with God in giving flesh to God in that He may become the Son of man and men the sons of God. And we in the Orthodox Church recognize Mary for this and is thus an example for all mankind.

You might note the tenses used by the Saints... They are 'present tense' and thus your defense of them as being only suggesting Mary's Fiat appears questionable. Again, I feel you are 'soft paddling' the teachings of the Early Church with such a position.

So yes, Mary does stand alone between God and the whole human race. For it was Mary the Virgin alone that gave flesh to God! So with that, we venerate her and refer to her as More honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, who, a Virgin, gave birth to God the Word, you, are truly the mother of God, we magnify.

Ah, yes but shouldn't you be prostrating while you type this?

 

[DHK]

Mary certainly participates in Salvation History, in that Mary alone cooperated fully with God in giving flesh to God in that He may become the Son of man and men the sons of God. And we in the Orthodox Church recognize Mary for this and is thus an example for all mankind.-

Learn some facts about man, God, and Mary.
1. God is just and treats all men equally, and that includes Mary. There are no exceptions.
2. All are born sinners, and that includes Mary.
3. All therefore are in need of a Savior and that included Mary--Mary even expressed the same need.
4. All sinners (including Mary) are on their way to Hell.
5. No one is "born a Christian."
6. Jesus said to Nicodemus "You must be born again" to see the Kingdom of God." This truth applied to Mary as much as it did to Nicodemus, and it is still an important truth that applies to each and every one of us today, and at the same time has nothing to do with baptism.

Thus Mary, a sinner on her way to Hell, condemned by her own sinful condition, needed a Savior by her own admission, and that Savior was the very Christ that she bore. She also had to come to the place where she had to believe that Christ was the Messiah. When that exactly happened we don't know. The Bible doesn't say. No one is born a Christian. There is a necessity therefore of being born again. Mary needed to be born again. She was a sinner. She took a sin offering to the priest. There was a reason for that. She was no better than any other woman of her day. God could have chosen any one of the Hebrew virgins of that day, but He chose Mary. He had to choose someone. There was nothing special about Mary. She was a vessel that God used for a special purpose and that was all.

To ascribe worship to her, veneration, etc. is idolatry, and a violation of the Ten Commandments.

 

[Matt Black]

If you pray to me, you are worshiping me and it is idolatry. It is a violation of the Ten Commandments. It doesn't matter that whether in your prayer you ask me to mediate for you or not. It doesn't matter what the content of your prayer is. All that matters is that you are praying to me, and that is worship. All prayer is worship. And for you to worship me as such is idolatry. The angel in heaven condemned John for such an action, just as Cornelius was condemned by Peter for the same action.

I ask the question again: if I ask you to pray to God for me, is that idolatry, yes or no? Please answer the question this time.

 

[David Lamb]

Even better DHK, we have angles AND elders offering our prayers to God. Not only do we ask Mary and the Saints in heaven to pray for us, we also ask the...angles as well! ICXC NIKA
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What's this about asking Angles to pray for us? The Saxons and the Jutes might feel left out! :laugh:

Did you mean "angels"? If you did, where is the biblical evidence that Christians are to ask angels to pray for them? There is no indication in the passage from Revelation you quoted that Christians asked the elders or angels to pray for them

Those who say that we can/should pray to Mary, angels, etc. do not agree with those who believe we should pray only to God, on the matter of the authority of Scripture. The same goes for those who say that we can/should ask Christians in heaven to pray for us. If we don't agree on what the basis for our beliefs is, we are unlikely to agree on beliefs themselves, and to me, and if that is so, what is the point in continuing to discuss them?

 

[Matt Black]

Agreed re your last point on epistemology. On the first point, given your knowledge of Latin, let me alter Pope Gregory's quote thus to describe the congregation I attend: Non angli sed Anglicani!

 

[DHK]

I ask the question again: if I ask you to pray to God for me, is that idolatry, yes or no? Please answer the question this time.

How many times does it have to be answered Matt? Read my previous post. I (and others) have answered your question many times over.

 

[DHK]

Luke 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

PRAY

proseucomai proseuchomai pros-yoo'-khom-ahee

from 4314 and 2172; to pray to God, i.e. supplicate, worship:--pray (X earnestly, for), make prayer. (Strong's)

From the Greek word for prayer we see:
1. that prayer is to God.
2. that prayer is worship.

That should put this matter to rest.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Romans 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Paul was not making himself an idol when he begged these to pray for him.

Nor are we making ourselves idols by requesting those saints still alive on this earth to pray for us.

 

[Matt Black]

Thank you for that clarification, both of you. I see no difference between that and asking a deceased saint to pray for me. If the one isn't idolatry - and you have confirmed it is not - then neither is the other.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Thank you for that clarification, both of you. I see no difference between that and asking a deceased saint to pray for me. If the one isn't idolatry - and you have confirmed it is not - then neither is the other.

Having eyes to see, you see not.

 

[DHK]

Thank you for that clarification, both of you. I see no difference between that and asking a deceased saint to pray for me. If the one isn't idolatry - and you have confirmed it is not - then neither is the other.

Prayer is worship. The RCC position (whom you are defending) prays not asks, the deceased saint and especially Mary to both intercede for them, and they worship and adore her. See the examples that Bob and others have given. They pray and worship her. That fact is indisputable. And that is idolatry. It is not a request.

If I ask you to pray for me, that is one thing.
If I pray to you, it is idolatry, and sin.

Matt, the Bible was not written in English; it was written in Greek (the NT, at least). Your arguments are based on the same premises as the KJVO people. "If the KJVO is good enough for Paul then it is good enough for me."
You cannot insert English definitions of "pray" into the Greek Scriptures. It doesn't work. Pray, means worship, all the time in the Scriptures. We don't go by the English meanings, we go by the Greek words and their meanings. Prayer means worship. And I don't worship you or Mary, or the saints. Your argument fails. Prayer is worship, and when that is directed to others, it is idolatry.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

First, before a genuine prayer is words or even a thought, it is first a movement of the heart. That moment, is imo, prayer itself. Words or thoughts just clothe it…make it intelligible to us humans. But to God, who sees the heart and in Him so do His Saints who are made to be partakers of His Nature.

Now DHK wants to box “prayer” in and force his own interpretation of what prayer is on others and when they don’t adhere to his interpretation he labels one an idolater. DHK’s Biblical understanding of ‘prayer’ is limited and thus he falls into error.

Is prayer worship? Prayer can and prayer is also supplications and intercessions, prayer is also to beseech, to petition, request or desire. All can be found in the pages of Scripture. Or to dumb it down more, prayer can mean to ask sincerely. Hence when a lawyer drafts a complaint or Petition to begin a lawsuit, it always ends with a “Prayer for Relief”, which simply means that the Petitioner is setting out what he wants the court to do for him.

Prayer for one another is our Christian duty, its natural, communal and traditional. If you’ve asked someone to pray for you, then by the very Biblical definition, you’ve “prayed to someone for their intercession”.

God commands us to pray for one another! I say again, God COMMANDS that we PRAY for one another. Why would God command that we pray for each other if we can pray to God on our own, by ourselves, and we need no one else but Jesus?

I thought a lot about this and I can only say that the real question isn’t: Why intercession of the saints? But really, why intercession at all?

As an Orthodox Catechumen I’ve been introduced to the Trinitarian theology. That we are created for communion, God is Love, Three persons in one essence. God is communion, and we are created in His image, thus we cannot be fulfilled or fully human apart from communion and relationships in love. Intercession is communion, sharing a common life, humanity and being connected to one another through Christ Jesus.

DHK wants us to believe that what St. John sees in his Revelation is symbolic; that the Saints and angels in heaven are NOT really offering our prayers up to God on His Altar. That our fellow Christians from the first century on, that prayed for us on earth that are now perfected in heaven and are witnessing our struggles, wouldn’t dare pray for us.

ICXC NIKA
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[standingfirminChrist]

Agnus Dei wants to force upon those who adhere to the truth a belief that idolatry (prayer to anyone other than God) is not sin.

That boat will not float.