Agnus this is why we use sola scriptura and why it works. I can prove everything that I have said using the Scripture and only the Scripture. But you can't back up any of your points by the Scriptures. In fact you violate the Scriptures. Instead you must go by your own secular definitions, definitions that are found in modern English dictionaries, and of course in RCC Tradition. But your ideas or theology does not stand the test of Scripture. If it does you would be able to show clearly where it does. But you can't.
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Jesus Repudiates Mariolatry
- Thread starter skypair
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I'm not defending the RCC position; in fact there are certain things about that position re Mary which do concern me. My question, which I repeat again since you and SFIC seem to continue to misunderstand it is this: if I merely ask (not worship, not 'pray to') Mary (or my dead grandmother or any other deceased saint) to pray for me, why do you believe that that is idolatry?DHK said:
standingfirminChrist
New Member
It is not DHK, nor I who misunderstands the Scripture concerning who one is and is not to pray to.
Take a look in the mirror of God's Holy Word, Matt, and you will see the guilty parties are you and Agnus Dei along with RCC.
Whe you ask or pray to Mary, you are consulting with the dead... this is forbidden in God's Holy Word. Saul is a clear example of this. When he had the witch of Endor bring up the spirit of Samuel from the dead so he could talk with him, God took his kingdom away.
Take a look in the mirror of God's Holy Word, Matt, and you will see the guilty parties are you and Agnus Dei along with RCC.
Whe you ask or pray to Mary, you are consulting with the dead... this is forbidden in God's Holy Word. Saul is a clear example of this. When he had the witch of Endor bring up the spirit of Samuel from the dead so he could talk with him, God took his kingdom away.
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Matt, Agnus Die, etc...
I'll save you the trouble.
WE...ALL...KNOW...that those who have died and gone to heaven are alive in spirit form in heaven. We all know that, so you dont have to say it. We have all heard that smokescreen a million times
God refers to them as the *dead* because they have experienced their physical death, and their remains are deader than a doornail while awaiting the general resurrection.
Now that THAT has been cleared up, God forbids us to attempt to contact the DEAD. Mary or any other dead person.
Catholics, EOCers and others are attempting to contact the dead.
Mike
I'll save you the trouble.
WE...ALL...KNOW...that those who have died and gone to heaven are alive in spirit form in heaven. We all know that, so you dont have to say it. We have all heard that smokescreen a million times
God refers to them as the *dead* because they have experienced their physical death, and their remains are deader than a doornail while awaiting the general resurrection.
Now that THAT has been cleared up, God forbids us to attempt to contact the DEAD. Mary or any other dead person.
Catholics, EOCers and others are attempting to contact the dead.
Mike
Thank you boht for finally answering my question; now we're getting somewhere.
I think, if I may say so, that you are both confusing and conflating life after death under the Old Covenant with that of the saints in Christ under the New. Those who died under the Old went to the realm of the dead (Sheol) and we are told in Luke 16:26 that there is a great gulf between there and the realm of the living. However, when Jesus talks about life after death in the context of the New Covenant (Matt 22:23-32). looking ahead to His glorious resurrection, He makes it clear that those who have died in faith are not dead but living; He does this again in John 11:25. In saying this, He was pointing forward to His own activity between His crucifixion and resurrection as referenced in I Peter 3:19-20, where He went to Sheol and set the captives there (those who had died in the faith of the Old Covenant but looking forward to His coming) free (cf Eph 4:8).
So, putting the above together, the prohibition on 'consulting the dead' under the Old Covenant, whilst good for then for the reasons above, does not apply to those who are alive in Christ (whether physically still alive or physically dead) since, by definition, being alive in Christ, they are not dead. To say otherwise is, IMO, to repeat the error of the Sadducees in Matt 22.
I think, if I may say so, that you are both confusing and conflating life after death under the Old Covenant with that of the saints in Christ under the New. Those who died under the Old went to the realm of the dead (Sheol) and we are told in Luke 16:26 that there is a great gulf between there and the realm of the living. However, when Jesus talks about life after death in the context of the New Covenant (Matt 22:23-32). looking ahead to His glorious resurrection, He makes it clear that those who have died in faith are not dead but living; He does this again in John 11:25. In saying this, He was pointing forward to His own activity between His crucifixion and resurrection as referenced in I Peter 3:19-20, where He went to Sheol and set the captives there (those who had died in the faith of the Old Covenant but looking forward to His coming) free (cf Eph 4:8).
So, putting the above together, the prohibition on 'consulting the dead' under the Old Covenant, whilst good for then for the reasons above, does not apply to those who are alive in Christ (whether physically still alive or physically dead) since, by definition, being alive in Christ, they are not dead. To say otherwise is, IMO, to repeat the error of the Sadducees in Matt 22.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Matt Black said:
I know you do not hold with "scripture alone", but even so, you must surely be surprised that we do not have even one example in the New Testament of a Christian on earth either praying to a Christian in heaven, or asking a Christian in heaven to pray for him? Yet there are instances of Christians asking other Christians on earth to pray for them, as well as Christians praying for other Christians on earth. (2 Thessalonians 3.1 is an example of the former, and 2 Thessalonians 1.11 of the latter).
Grace and Peace Everyone,
Our Lord and Saviour prayed to the Father...
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. ~ John 17:11-23
What is the perfect oneness which our Lord speaks? Is it merely 'one in purpose'? If such is so then we would have to say that Jesus is not 'one in being with the Father' and thus not part of the Holy Trinity... This oneness is something else, or at the very least, it was considered something else by the Early Church. This 'perfect oneness' which will be shared with our Lord and the Father is the union between 'those who believe that the Father sent our Lord' with our Lord and the Father in heaven. This union is a union beyond what we can comprehend in our current fallen state. The union is described as the 'same' as that which is shared with our Lord and the Father. If any one creature can be said to now share in the perfect union with the Father and the Son... the Early Church affirmed that one creature to be the quiet obedient Mary, Mother of our Lord and God Jesus Christ.
So, what do you think this oneness which is shared between the Father and the Son is? I welcome your thoughts.
Our Lord and Saviour prayed to the Father...
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. ~ John 17:11-23
What is the perfect oneness which our Lord speaks? Is it merely 'one in purpose'? If such is so then we would have to say that Jesus is not 'one in being with the Father' and thus not part of the Holy Trinity... This oneness is something else, or at the very least, it was considered something else by the Early Church. This 'perfect oneness' which will be shared with our Lord and the Father is the union between 'those who believe that the Father sent our Lord' with our Lord and the Father in heaven. This union is a union beyond what we can comprehend in our current fallen state. The union is described as the 'same' as that which is shared with our Lord and the Father. If any one creature can be said to now share in the perfect union with the Father and the Son... the Early Church affirmed that one creature to be the quiet obedient Mary, Mother of our Lord and God Jesus Christ.
So, what do you think this oneness which is shared between the Father and the Son is? I welcome your thoughts.
Nor do we have any command in the NT to meet every Sunday...but we do (unless you're an SDA or something similar) - see my thread on Scripture and Tradition.David Lamb said:
I’m glad you cleared this up for the class…that the dead, their souls, are alive in Christ. With that, they are STILL apart of the Body of Christ and I am as well, even though I’m still alive. Christ’s body cannot be divided; he’s one with the Father as the Father is with the Son and the Holy Spirit.D28guy said:
When a Christian dies, they don’t cease to be the body of Christ nor do they move into a different realm or status, they are still very much apart of the Church.
They are still concerned for us Christians that are alive…The parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows us that those that have passed on are still concerned for those still alive. Johns Revelation shows the saints and angles all offering our prayers upon the altar of God!
It’s also important to keep in mind that Moses was DEAD and Elijah was carried away into heaven and both appeared to Christ in Matthew 17:3. Is Christ guilty of contacting the dead D28guy?
I didn’t think so.
Duet 18:10-15: There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed.
What God is forbidding is Necromantic, which is the conjuring up of spirits for the purposes of gaining information…
There’s a huge difference in someone hold a séance to have the dead speak through you and someone humbly asking a Saint to pray for them…anyone with an ounce of common sense can see the difference…one is an occult practice and the other is a request for prayer.
ICXC NIKA
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First, there are probably no two persons on this board that can agree on an exact definition of "soul," for the OT indicates that even the animals have "souls." Do you pray to animals?? Are they a apart of this church you speak of?Agnus_Dei said:
Second, you have a gross misrpresentation of what a church is? There is no "church" in heaven. Or what "church" do you think will be there? Maybe it will be the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem, in which case you will be counted out. What church will it be? There is no such thing as "The Church." The word "church" simply means assembly, and it is impossible to have an unassembled assembly, as you think there is today when you refer to the unbiblical concept of "The Church." The only concept of "church" given in the Bible is the local church. There are churches in the Bible, never one universal "Church". Churches are always organized "bodies" of believers with pastors and deacons that can make decisions regarding their own members and goals, that carry out the ordinaces that Christ gave them, as well as the Great Commission. This "The Church" cannot do.
Thus no "person" in heaven can be part of a local church. We don't have spirits flying around the local churches helping out where necessary. Or, do you believe in ghosts, Agnus??
They cease to be, period. Their bodies are in the grave, and will not come to life until the resurrection. To pray to a spirit is equivalent to what the Bible calls necromancy, as you have been admonished many times over. A dead person cannot be part of any church. There is no church in heaven. God ordained the local church as a God-given institution through which he would do His work in this day and age. There is no "The Church."
"They are still concerned," you say? They are still dead!!
You have no knowledge about their spirits, and yet you attiribute them the status of godhood which is blasphemy. Only God is omnisicient. Why do you say these so-called saints or spirits have all knowledge? That is just what you implied isn't it? "Theyknow" They know what? All things? How do you know, what they know? You imply that they are omniscient, that is that they are gods. That is blasphemy. Otherwised you don't have a clue what they do know and what they don't know.
That which the story of the rich man and Lazarus tells us is the same which every unsaved man in this world will tell us--their yearning for their loved ones to be saved and not reject the gospel as they did lest they come into such a place of torment. Hell will be a place of conscious torment, as the story tells us. It will be a place of torment. All the prayers of eternity from that rich man could do his brothers no good. He was in Hell. And it was real. His prayers would do no good. And so it is in heaven. The prayers in heaven of any saint for those on earth will never do an ounce of good. There is only one intercessor in heaven--the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible makes that very clear. He is our mediator, advocate, intercessor, great high priest. There is no other. No one in heaven can take his place.
God permitted Elijah and Moses in perhaps a temporary body to appear with Jesus to declare his glory to these three disciples of Christ. It was the most glorious sight that they had ever seen--the transfigured Christ. It was another verification of the Father: "This is my beloved Son, here ye him."
Duet 18:10-15: There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed.
What God is forbidding is praying, speaking, talking, etc., to the dead. That also is a form of necromancy. Don't try to excuse yourself so easily.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
You have been given the truth by many on this board, Agnus, and yet you still refuse it. You will have nont to answer to for the heretical praying to anyone other than the Father.
Jesus taught His Disciples to pray in Matthew 6. In His prayer, He never said that one is to pray to anyone but the Father. There is no command to pray to anyone but the Father.
Jesus taught His Disciples to pray in Matthew 6. In His prayer, He never said that one is to pray to anyone but the Father. There is no command to pray to anyone but the Father.
Er...which Bible are you reading? Why does Paul talk about 'Christ's Body, which is The Church' (singular)? How many Bodies does Jesus have??? I really can't believe I'm reading this nonsense!!DHK said:
standingfirminChrist
New Member
When we diligently study the Word of God, we come to know that prayer is directed to God and to Him alone. To use Mary as a mediator for our prayers is setting her up as a deity. Praying to Mary to pray for us is not even Biblical, but comes straight from the pits of hell in order to deceive millions into thinking they are pleasing God.
There is not a single instance of a Child of God praying to Mary... not one.
Ephesians 2:18 teaches that through Jesus, we have access to the Father... not through Mary.
Hebrews 7:25 tells us that Jesus, who is our High Priest, ever liveth to make intercession for us. Christ is our all in all. He is our intecessor, not Mary. To pray to Mary puts her in a higher authority that Christ Jesus Himself.
Jesus instructed the Disciples after telling them that He was going away...
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Notice the instruction was to ask the Father, not ask Mary to ask the Father.
Mary is not to be prayed to.
There is not a single instance of a Child of God praying to Mary... not one.
Ephesians 2:18 teaches that through Jesus, we have access to the Father... not through Mary.
Hebrews 7:25 tells us that Jesus, who is our High Priest, ever liveth to make intercession for us. Christ is our all in all. He is our intecessor, not Mary. To pray to Mary puts her in a higher authority that Christ Jesus Himself.
Jesus instructed the Disciples after telling them that He was going away...
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Notice the instruction was to ask the Father, not ask Mary to ask the Father.
Mary is not to be prayed to.
Oh , so you take this literally I see SFIC. So the class can confirm that you don’t participate in prayer groups in your church…that you don’t ask others to pray for you…I mean, Christ’s instructions, according to you are to ask the Father and not you prayer group...standingfirminChrist said:
ICXC NIKA
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
You really don't understand the Word of God concerning prayer do you, Agnus?
Why don't you just answer the question? Do you ask people to pray for you, yes or no? Because if you do, according to your own standard, apparently you violate Christ's command.
A prayer is a movement of the heart, words and thoughts just clothe it…make it intelligible to us humans. God sees the heart SFIC and we are made in the image of God to be partakers in His nature…God became man, so we may become God…and through Christ trampling down death, we have that opportunity to be partakers of His nature when we die. Therefore, the Saints in heaven see our heart too, which is why they offer our prayers to God upon the altar.standingfirminChrist said:
God commands us to pray for one another, to intercede for one another and the only way to do that is to ask for their prayers. Why would God be jealous if I were to ask a Saint, someone that's finished the good race, is now perfect and our example for prayers and not jealous if I was to ask YOU a sinner for prayers?
The Lord answers the prayers of the righteous SFIC…who’s more righteous, you or the Saints that are now partakers in Gods nature?
ICXC NIKA
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
No, I am not violating Christ's command. Christ said 'When you pray...' He never gave a command not to have other living people pray for you. But He most certainly gave a command to pray to the Father and no one else.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Agnus_Dei said:
More blasphemy, Agnus? "God became man, so we may become God"
That is not why Jesus Christ came to this earth, Agnus. That is a mormon teaching... that man will become God or gods.
Agnus, I urge you to study your Bible instead of believing such idiotic statements such as 'it is ok to pray to Mary,' or 'God became man so we could become God.'
…but SFIC, prayer is supplications, intercessions, to beseech, to petition, request or to desire…or in American terms…to ask sincerely.standingfirminChrist said:
So in essence SFIC, when you ask the prayers of others you’ve just prayed to them for their intercessions.
Have a nice evening.
ICXC NIKA
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