Jesus Repudiates Mariolatry

[Agnus_Dei]

More blasphemy, Agnus? "God became man, so we may become God"

...ahhh, so God became man so we might become...Christ like?

Is that easier on the ears SFIC?

ICXC NIKA
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[Linda64]

A prayer is a movement of the heart, words and thoughts just clothe it…make it intelligible to us humans. God sees the heart SFIC and we are made in the image of God to be partakers in His nature…God became man, so we may become God…and through Christ trampling down death, we have that opportunity to be partakers of His nature when we die. Therefore, the Saints in heaven see our heart too, which is why they offer our prayers to God upon the altar.

God became man to be our perfect sacrifice for sin, not that we may become God. That is pure blasphemous and heretical!

We already ARE partakers of His divine nature--this does not happen when we die.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The saints in heaven are disembodied spirits awaiting the resurrection when their spirits will be re-united with their bodies and "we will all be changed". Disembodied spirits DO NOT pray. Jesus Christ is our ONLY mediator, not disembodied spirits of the dead saints. We approach God through Christ, Who is our Great High Priest:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Mary is a dead saint. She is a disembodied spirit which does not pray nor intercede for the LIVING saints.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Blessings Linda

Key word in 2 Peter 1:4…look closely you might miss it.

In any event, where do you see in Scripture that ‘disembodied spirits’ don’t pray? Are the angels disembodied spirits? Are the Saints in heaven, disembodied spirits too? If disembodied spirits not allowed pray, then who are the ones offering prayers to God in Revelation?

God became man to be our perfect sacrifice for sin, not that we may become God. That is pure blasphemous and heretical!

Before I’m carried off to the stake, allow I explain. That quote may have been a little much for some to comprehend and to be honest and not to offend you personally, but some aren’t ready to be weaned from the breast.

Theosis is where the quote derives from, which is from a Church Father. It doesn’t mean that we will become ontologically (a part of) God, but that through theoria, the knowledge of God in Jesus, we humans come to know and experience what it means to be fully human, the created image of God, through our communion with Jesus, God shares Himself with the human race, in order to conform us to all that God is in knowledge, righteousness and holiness.

Thus theosis asserts the complete restoration of all people (and of the entire creation), in principle. This is built upon the understanding of the atonement put forward by St. Irenaeus, called recapitulaton.

For many fathers, theosis goes beyond simply restoring people to their state before the Fall of Adam and Eve, teaching that because Christ united the human and divine natures in his person, it is now possible for someone to experience closer fellowship with God than Adam and Eve initially experienced in the Garden of Eden, and that people can become more like God than Adam and Eve were at that time.

Some Orthodox theologians go so far as to say that Jesus would have become incarnate for this reason alone, even if Adam and Eve had never sinned.

All of humanity is fully restored to the full potential of humanity because the Son of God took to Himself a human nature to be born of a woman, and takes to Himself also the sufferings of sin (yet is not Himself a sinful man, and is God unchanged in His being).

This reconciliation is made actual through the struggle to conform to the image of Christ. Without the struggle, the praxis, there is no real faith; faith leads to action, without which it is dead.

One must unite will, thought and deed to God's will, His thoughts and His actions. A person must fashion his life to be a mirror, a true likeness of God.

More than that, since God and humanity are more than a similarity in Christ but rather a true union, Christians' lives are more than mere imitation and are rather a union with the life of God Himself: so that, the one who is working out salvation, is united with God working within the penitent both to will and to do that which pleases God.

The journey towards theosis includes many forms of praxis. Living in a community of the faithful and partaking regularly of the sacraments, and especially the Eucharist.

Also important is cultivating "prayer of the heart", and prayer that never ceases, as Paul exhorts the Thessalonians (1 and 2). This unceasing prayer of the heart is a dominant theme in the writings of the Fathers, especially in those collected in the Philokalia.

I’m getting way off topic, but look up “Philokalia”, but only if you desire a deeper prayer life.

ICXC NIKA
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[DHK]

I'm not defending the RCC position; in fact there are certain things about that position re Mary which do concern me. My question, which I repeat again since you and SFIC seem to continue to misunderstand it is this: if I merely ask (not worship, not 'pray to') Mary (or my dead grandmother or any other deceased saint) to pray for me, why do you believe that that is idolatry?

Matt, we have answered this question many times for you; I don't see where the problem is. I understand your position. However you are adamant in not accepting the Scriptural position. You reject it no matter how many times it is explained to you, and no matter how many reasons are given to you. That is what baffles me. Why do you keep rejecting the Scriptures?

First, to set the record straight, you have been consistently defending the RCC position. Your position doesn't vary a whole lot from it.

Second, the nature of your question is just a rewording of the same question asked before:
"If I merely "ask" (read pray) to Mary for me, why is it idolatry?"

1. Because the Bible says that it is idolatry.
2. Because it is prayer.
3. Because all prayer is worship.
4. Because all requests (prayers), intercessions, etc., going upward, must indeed go to God. If it isn't going God-ward it is idolatry.
5. There is no one that can intercede for you in heaven. Christ alone has that privilege, and it becomes blasphemy for you to take it away from him and give it to another.
6. The type of intercession that you are speaking of is not: "DHK pray for me, or pray for my brother because he is sick." Rather it is the type of prayer that the RCC directs to a priest in a confessional--that the priest becomes an intercessor between man and God. This again is blasphemous. It follows the OT pattern of the Levitical priesthood which Christ did away with at the Cross. In that vain, we are all priests before God, and Christ is our Great High Priest.
7. A request is different than a prayer. It is wrong to pray to a person, whether on earth or in heaven, whether to you or to Mary, whether to angels or to saints. Prayer to anyone but God alone is wrong. It is idolatry. And the "requests" that you are speaking of are just another word for prayers, if you are honest with us.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

While it is true that angels are all ministering spirits, it is not true to say they are disembodied spirits. To be disembodied, they would have had to have had a body first.

The saints in heaven are disembodied. The are the spirits of those who lived here on earth prior to the cross... those Jesus freed from captivity upon His death on the cross.

 

[DHK]

Er...which Bible are you reading? Why does Paul talk about 'Christ's Body, which is The Church' (singular)? How many Bodies does Jesus have??? I really can't believe I'm reading this nonsense!!

One can use this logic many ways and come up with the same "nonsense" that you end up with, and yet accept.

1. Does the Holy Spirit indwell every believer? But I thought there was only one Holy Spirit! Is this nonsense to you also?

2. Does 1Cor.11 teaches a principle of headship, where the head of every woman is the man, and the head of every church is Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
--The head of every man is Christ. Are there many Christs because there are many men, Matt?
--The head of Christ is God. Take the logic farther. If you conclude from the above premise that there are many Christs, then are there also many Gods that you worship? Where does it end Matt?

The truth is that Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, and the church at Ephesus, and the church at Philippi, etc. He never wrote to any kind of universal church, but to churches, all of them local. He went on three missionary journeys and established approximately 100 local churches, all of them independent one from another. The church (ekklesia) is an assembly or congregation and that is all. As taught all throughout the NT, each local church is a body of believers, and thus a body of Christ, Christ's body of believers located in various places throughout the centuries.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Revelation...

... seven churches.

 

[Zenas]

First, it is all purely symbolic.
Secondly you have no evidence that they are the twelve apostles (or even patriarchs). That is simply a guess on your part. Think about this. That was John writing and John witnessing those events. Was John then looking at himself (one of the 12) as he was recording this. I don't think so! (Oh look, there I am! Hi John. Glad to see me.)
They were 24 elders, and the Bible is silent about there exact identification, other than they are 24 elders. Where the Bible is silent we remain silent.

Secondly all prayers are offered to God, by the saints, and do not go through any other intercessor. What you view is something purely symbolic, and are reading far too much into the Book of Revelation. You are reading into it your own pre-conceived ideas--doctrine that is not taught elswhere, and in fact is taught against elsewhere in the Bible. Thus your interpretation of a necessity is absolutely wrong.
But that is not what is happening. The saints in Heaven don't go gathering up any prayers at all. Where do you get that from? Again you are reading into Scripture things that are not there.
All prayer is directed to God. That we know for certain.
No, they don't "pass through the hands of the 24 elders or saints. It is a picture. It is symbolic. What is a prayer? It is communication from the heart of man to God. It cannot be seen but only heard by God. It is not visible to the human eye. How can John see words that have been uttered to God? That is an impossibility. Obviously it is a picture; something very symbolic.
1. The saints in Heaven cannot collect prayers to God; that is just your imagination; your interpretation.
2. The saints cannot collect any prayers whatsoever. This is just vain imagination.

Actually my interpretation concerning the 24 elders is more or less what is contained in the footnotes of my Zondervan NASB Study Bible. Your problem, DHK, is that your view of Heaven is earthbound. You see through a glass darkly and can't imagine the much better view when we see "face to face." Why can't the inhabitants of Heaven (the saints) see prayers? smell prayers? taste prayers? They are not inhibited by the constraints of time and space like we are. I believe that as citizens of Heaven (saints), we will be able to walk through walls; travel from planet to planet in the twinkling of an eye; understand the mysteries of the universe; and even hear the prayers of many other persons spoken in different languages all at the same time.

 

[Zenas]

The truth is that Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, and the church at Ephesus, and the church at Philippi, etc. He never wrote to any kind of universal church, but to churches, all of them local. He went on three missionary journeys and established approximately 100 local churches, all of them independent one from another. The church (ekklesia) is an assembly or congregation and that is all. As taught all throughout the NT, each local church is a body of believers, and thus a body of Christ, Christ's body of believers located in various places throughout the centuries.

And let's just ignore those red letter words: "Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it." Matthew 16:18. No plurals here, just one church, the Church of Christ. Obviously, DHK, the term "church" connotes a local body of believers, but it also refers to the universal (catholic) church. Even the Baptist Faith and Message recognizes this. "The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation." BFM Section VI.

 

[DHK]

Actually my interpretation concerning the 24 elders is more or less what is contained in the footnotes of my Zondervan NASB Study Bible. Your problem, DHK, is that your view of Heaven is earthbound.

I am earthbound, and constrained by what the Holy Spirit teaches me through the Word of
God. Are you implying that you have already been to heaven and back, and thus can describe for us what goes on in heaven??

You see through a glass darkly and can't imagine the much better view when we see "face to face."

And you have been to heaven and have seen Him face to face?? Where and when did this happen??

Why can't the inhabitants of Heaven (the saints) see prayers? smell prayers? taste prayers?

Do you base your theology on mere speculation. The Bible condemns such.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

1 Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

They are not inhibited by the constraints of time and space like we are.

How do you know (unless you have been there) what constraints these disembodied spirits have? It is the Lord that is sovereign, and you do not know what constraints that He has put upon these spirits, unless of course you also are omniscient. That attribute belongs only to God Himself.

I believe that as citizens of Heaven (saints), we will be able to walk through walls; travel from planet to planet in the twinkling of an eye; understand the mysteries of the universe; and even hear the prayers of many other persons spoken in different languages all at the same time.

You can believe all the hokey-pokey fairy tales you want. But that is not what the Bible teaches. Where the Bible is silent we must remain silent. The resurrection has not yet taken place, and thus for all intents and purposes those "saints" that you refer to are dead people. Why is there so much interest in "the dead" anyway? What a morbid subject!

 

[DHK]

And let's just ignore those red letter words: "Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it." Matthew 16:18. No plurals here, just one church, the Church of Christ.

I will build my church; future tense. The word "church," being used in a generic sense, as one church to represent many. "Henry Ford invented the car." One car to represent many. Man sinned. One man to represent many.

Obviously, DHK, the term "church" connotes a local body of believers, but it also refers to the universal (catholic) church.

The word "church" has no connotation there. It has a denotation; that is an actual definitive meaning that you can look up in a Greek lexicon--assembly, congregation. This new and modern definition that you are assigning it is not Biblical.

Even the Baptist Faith and Message recognizes this.

There are many things Baptists disagree upon. Check out the different Baptist forums and see for yourself. There is no one uniform Baptist Statement of Faith. So your argument fails.

"The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation." BFM Section VI.

I have no idea what you quoted from; but it wasn't from our statement of faith or constitution, so it really doesn't matter to me. Like I said, there is a great deal of diversity among Baptists.

 

[Zenas]

I have no idea what you quoted from; but it wasn't from our statement of faith or constitution, so it really doesn't matter to me. Like I said, there is a great deal of diversity among Baptists.

It is the Baptist Faith and Message, the statement of faith adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention at its 2000 meeting. Here is the link to a rosetta stone presentation, comparing the 1925, 1963 and 2000 versions. http://www.baptiststandard.com/postnuke/themes/PostNukeBlue/comparison.html

 

[Zenas]

DHK said:

I am earthbound, and constrained by what the Holy Spirit teaches me through the Word of
God. Are you implying that you have already been to heaven and back, and thus can describe for us what goes on in heaven??

And you have been to heaven and have seen Him face to face?? Where and when did this happen??

No, I just happen to believe someone who did go to Heaven and gave us a few tantalizing glimpses. "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known." Also, "And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-- was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak." This gives us a pretty good idea that we will have powers and abilities we can't even imagine now. Like I said, you are earthbound. Earthbound: unimaginative; ordinary.

You can believe all the hokey-pokey fairy tales you want. But that is not what the Bible teaches. Where the Bible is silent we must remain silent.

Why must we remain silent where the Bible is silent? I assume you are a preacher and if you really believed that, you would be out of a job. Rather that having a sermon at the worship service, someone could just read a couple of chapters of scripture. True enough, we are not allowed to add to scripture but we can certainly speculate on matters that scripture leaves to the imagination.

The resurrection has not yet taken place, and thus for all intents and purposes those "saints" that you refer to are dead people. Why is there so much interest in "the dead" anyway? What a morbid subject.

I suppose if my view of Heaven were as pedestrian as yours, I would have to agree.

 

[David Lamb]

Nor do we have any command in the NT to meet every Sunday...but we do (unless you're an SDA or something similar) - see my thread on Scripture and Tradition.

Agreed, but we do have statements in the New Testament that show that Christians did meet for worship on the 1st day of the week, whereas there is not a single instance of a Christian on earth either praying to, or asking for the prayers of, a Christian in heaven. So it is not extra-biblical tradition that causes us to meet on Sundays for worship.

 

[DHK]

No, I just happen to believe someone who did go to Heaven and gave us a few tantalizing glimpses.

Are you a gnostic then? For what he saw, he revealed not.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
--Not only did he not reveal what he saw, he said very clearly that it he was unable to speak of the words that he heard. So from whence do you have this knowledge. It certainly didn't come from Paul, and it didn't come from the Bible. There is another source. Often people who end up praying to dead people get involved with getting information from this other source. I trust that is not the case with you.

"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."

And what do you think that this verse refers to? Ask a dozen Baptists on this board, and you will get a dozen interpretations. Personally I believe that the verse refers to the completion of the Word of God, and the context of the passage is spiritual gifts. But you have taken Scripture out of context and used it as a pretext to try and prove a point.

Also, "And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-- was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak."

Speak the truth! You did not know this man! Paul was the man that was caught up into paradise, and you have never met him. Or were you involved in seances and thought that you spoke to him?? Paul stated, as you quoted, that he was not even permitted to speak of that which he heard. So how do you claim to have the knowledge that he never uttered? Are you omniscient, have ESP, (retroactively yet), or what?

This gives us a pretty good idea that we will have powers and abilities we can't even imagine now.

What gives you a pretty good idea? Paul said he heard things that he cannot speak of when he was in paradise. And you say that gives you a pretty good idea that we will have powers and abilities we can't even imagine. What kind of logic is that? How do you come to such a conclusion?

Like I said, you are earthbound. Earthbound: unimaginative; ordinary.

I believe in sola scriptura. What the Bible teaches; I believe. If my beliefs are not Scriptural show me otherwise. If you find that description "earthbound and unimaginative," then fine, I don't mind your labels. I don't believe in fairy-tales, vain men's imaginations that are outside of the Bible.

Why must we remain silent where the Bible is silent?

Because, one, the Bible commands us to do so. It commands us to stay away from vain speculations. And two, all speculation is just that--speculation. That is where false doctrine starts. Look at the false doctrines of the RCC: worship of Mary and dead saints, purgatory, Limbo, indulgences, assumption of Mary, transubstantiaion, baptismal regeneration, no salvation outside of the RCC, etc. There are many strange doctrines of the Catholic Church which are totally unbiblical and anti-Biblical. They take away from the atonement, even denying the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.

I assume you are a preacher and if you really believed that, you would be out of a job.

Of course you are wrong. If I preached what you believed I would be out of job. You post heresy. Your beliefs are not Biblical.

Rather that having a sermon at the worship service, someone could just read a couple of chapters of scripture. True enough, we are not allowed to add to scripture but we can certainly speculate on matters that scripture leaves to the imagination.

I suggest that you meditate carefully on this verse, that even though was written at the end of the book of Revelation, Revelation being the last book of the canon of Scripture, the verse is applicable to the entire canon of Scripture. Here it is:

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
--There is a dire warning there for you to add your imaginary thoughts to the Word of God. God says don't do it. If you do, He will judge you severely. This is no small matter in His eyes.

I suppose if my view of Heaven were as pedestrian as yours, I would have to agree.

You would have to agree not to worship the dead in heaven. You would have to agree not to commit the sin of idolatry, of necromancy. Is this the "pedestrian view" you are speaking of? One that keeps you from following your own unbiblical ways in worshiping God your own carnal way instead of what God wants you to do. The Bible doesn't say: Go ahead and do your own thing; it stipulates and gives guidelines about how to worship God, and even where.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

This gives us a pretty good idea that we will have powers and abilities we can't even imagine now

Sounds like the same lie the serpent told Eve... 'Ye shall be as gods.'

Didn't Agnus Dei make the same kind of blasphemous statement earlier?

"God became man so that we may become God

You two need to get off the Baptist Board and into the Word of God. Your tongues reveal your motives.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I started a thread earlier in the Theology and Bible Study section that addressed Paul's account of the man he knew. IN it, I state reasons I do not believe Paul could have been that man he spoke of.

 

[D28guy]

Agnus Dei,

"Theosis is where the quote derives from, which is from a Church Father."

Thats your problem. One of them, at least. Thats one of the primary reasons why you, Matt, and others have drifted into such serious errors and idolatries.

We are not to draw doctrine from church "Fathers", since we have absolutly no guarantee that everything they come up with is true. The writings of the church Fathers can surely be interesting, but never never never are they to be thought of as equal to scripture, or even anywhere remotely close to equal to scripture. They are never to be considered as authoritative.

We are to draw our doctrine from Gods unchanging truth standard...the scriptures. And the scriptures ALONE.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in rightiousness, that the man of God might be complete, and thoroughly equipped for every good work"

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Matt, we have answered this question many times for you; I don't see where the problem is. I understand your position. However you are adamant in not accepting the Scriptural position. You reject it no matter how many times it is explained to you, and no matter how many reasons are given to you. That is what baffles me. Why do you keep rejecting the Scriptures?

I do not reject the Scriptures, but rather interpret them in the light of Apostolic Tradition

First, to set the record straight, you have been consistently defending the RCC position. Your position doesn't vary a whole lot from it.

Not quite - and I'll explain why as I tackle your points below.

Second, the nature of your question is just a rewording of the same question asked before:
"If I merely "ask" (read pray) to Mary for me, why is it idolatry?"

1. Because the Bible says that it is idolatry.
2. Because it is prayer.
3. Because all prayer is worship.
4. Because all requests (prayers), intercessions, etc., going upward, must indeed go to God. If it isn't going God-ward it is idolatry.
5. There is no one that can intercede for you in heaven. Christ alone has that privilege, and it becomes blasphemy for you to take it away from him and give it to another.
6. The type of intercession that you are speaking of is not: "DHK pray for me, or pray for my brother because he is sick." Rather it is the type of prayer that the RCC directs to a priest in a confessional--that the priest becomes an intercessor between man and God. This again is blasphemous. It follows the OT pattern of the Levitical priesthood which Christ did away with at the Cross. In that vain, we are all priests before God, and Christ is our Great High Priest.
7. A request is different than a prayer. It is wrong to pray to a person, whether on earth or in heaven, whether to you or to Mary, whether to angels or to saints. Prayer to anyone but God alone is wrong. It is idolatry. And the "requests" that you are speaking of are just another word for prayers, if you are honest with us.

"Nay, nay and thrice nay, sir!" This is where you're getting me mixed up with the RCC and EOC. I do not pray (in the sense of your above definition) to anyone other than God. Period. There is One Redeemer, One Mediator - Christ Jesus, to Whom be all prayer, praise and glory forever. I do however ask other Christians to pray for me, because that is Biblical, because there is 'safety in numbers' and, frequently because I perceive they are better 'pray-ers' than me (they're walking more with God, or they have more time than I do etc). Now,the Church has consistently taught that there is no distinction in that regard between those who are alive in Christ and physically walking this earth, and those who are alive in Christ and have already been taken to be with Him (in fact it can be argued that those who have gone before us are in a better position to pray than those of us still here, since they are with the Lord and not bound up with the cares and constraints of this world), and I don't have a problem with that; it is not against Scripture (despite attempts of some here to show otherwise; we are not 'consulting the dead' since those who are alive in Christ by definition cannot be dead) - to ask them to pray for me is no more 'praying to them' than me asking you to pray for me is 'praying to you'; neither is idolatry.

[/quote]

 

[Matt Black]

Agnus Dei,



Thats your problem. One of them, at least. Thats one of the primary reasons why you, Matt, and others have drifted into such serious errors and idolatries.

We are not to draw doctrine from church "Fathers", since we have absolutly no guarantee that everything they come up with is true. The writings of the church Fathers can surely be interesting, but never never never are they to be thought of as equal to scripture, or even anywhere remotely close to equal to scripture. They are never to be considered as authoritative.

We are to draw our doctrine from Gods unchanging truth standard...the scriptures. And the scriptures ALONE.



Mike

The ECFs are not on the level of Scripture but the consensus patri solves the problem of sola Scriptura by providing a consensus of correct interpretation of Scripture. That is why we ignore the patristic consensus at our peril.