Jesus & Salvation By Faith ALONE

[Andre]

For your position to be true then the Jew would have to believe that simply being a jew qualified you for justification and the Jews did not believe that.

I should have been more careful in how I expressed the view that I think is correct. I will get back to you on this.

 

[Andre]

OK, now to clarify. I agree that the Jew believed that some Jews would indeed not ultimately be justified. But that does not undermine the argument that I am making - which is that Paul is critiquing the Jew for believing that the only category of human beings that can be justified are Jews.

 

[Andre]

Why in the world do you think Paul repeats over and over and over again that we are not justified by "the deed" by "works" of the law if the Judiazers were not demanding the very opposite.

Precisely because, as I have argued, following the details of Paul's own reasoning as in Romans 3 and 4, because Paul needed to repudiate the view that the Jew was not the ethnic class of person who could be justified. It is precisely because Gentiles, too, can be justified that Paul denies justification by works of the law.

Romans and Galatians were not written to repudiate JEWISH teaching but the teaching of Judiastic Christians.

Fair enough, but this does no damage at all to my argument. When Paul says to a Christian Jew "you are not justified by the works of the law", he is telling that Jew: Gentiles can be justified as well.

He is certainly not contradicting the clear teaching of Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8 that ultimate salvation is based on the content of one's life as lived, for Jew and for Gentile.

....justification by "good" works JUST LIKE YOU ARE TEACHING.

Hey, take it up with Paul. The following are his words, not mine:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Here Paul says that God will give eternal life based on deeds. You appear to believe that Paul really does not mean what he says - that there will be coming judgement where eternal life is awarded based on deeds.

 

[Dr. Walter]

If what you say had ANY truth to it, all Paul would have had to say is - You don't have to become a jew to be saved - period. However, what he is concerned with is the basis for which both self-righteous Gentiles and Jews have for believing they will be justified according to their works. It was not a "Jew" only problem but a "GENTILE" problem as well (Rom. 2:1-5). The problem had to do with how a man "THINKETH" in regard to his BETTER works than those described in Romans 1:18-32. It had to do with the Jews BETTER works than other Jews as well as Gentiles. It had to do with the false supposition that God's standard of righteousness on judgement day would be RELATIVE RIGHTEOUSNESS that would allow the BETTER of men to escape judgement and this was the BOAST of both the self-righteous Gentile and Jew. This is your boast!! Why is it your boast? Because you don't profess to be SINLESS do you?? No! If you were SINLESS then no judgement would be necessary. You have the hope that with God's help your totality of works will be "BETTER" than what "bad" works you did and thus your hope of salvation rests upon being "BETTER" than bad - "according to your works." Therefore, your claim to fame over others is that your totality of "good" works was BETTER than those whose totality of works were more "BAD" than "good."

This is exactly the boast of the Jews (Rom. 2:17-24) as well as the self-righteous gentiles (Rom. 2:1-5) and this is exactly the hope and boast of those in Matthew 7:21-23 and Jesus will say the same to all who have this hope of Christ PLUS my good works.

Precisely because, as I have argued, following the details of Paul's own reasoning as in Romans 3 and 4, because Paul needed to repudiate the view that the Jew was not the ethnic class of person who could be justified. It is precisely because Gentiles, too, can be justified that Paul denies justification by works of the law.


Fair enough, but this does no damage at all to my argument. When Paul says to a Christian Jew "you are not justified by the works of the law", he is telling that Jew: Gentiles can be justified as well.

He is certainly not contradicting the clear teaching of Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8 that ultimate salvation is based on the content of one's life as lived, for Jew and for Gentile.


Hey, take it up with Paul. The following are his words, not mine:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Here Paul says that God will give eternal life based on deeds. You appear to believe that Paul really does not mean what he says - that there will be coming judgement where eternal life is awarded based on deeds.

 

[Andre]

If what you say had ANY truth to it, all Paul would have had to say is - You don't have to become a jew to be saved - period.

This is what Paul indeed says, as numerous texts attested - justification is not by the works of the Law of Moses. And his readers would obviously know that the Law of Moses was given only to Jews.

So, indeed Paul repeatedly asserts that you do not need to be a Jew to be saved.

However, what he is concerned with is the basis for which both self-righteous Gentiles and Jews have for believing they will be justified according to their works.

No. I suggest that there is no evidence at all that Paul ever critiques anyone for believing that ultimate justification is by good works. True, Paul does indeed write that we cannot do good works "on our own" in the absence of the Holy Spirit.

How could he? In Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8, not to mention 2 Cor 5 and other places, Paul affirms ultimate justification by good works. You are placed in the very odd position of explaining why, if Paul does not believe in ultimate justification by works, he writes these words:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

A more clear assertion of ultimate justification by good works cannot be made. And yet you, and others, seem to believe that Paul simply does not mean what he clearly says. It's really hard to argue with that kind of exegesis. On what basis, exactly, do you believe that Paul does not mean what he says?

 

[Dr. Walter]

It is one thing to state the fairness of the law and the just consequences for obedience and disobedience but it is quite another thing to point to anyone specifically and say they have done it. Romans 2:6-15 clearly sets forth the JUST consequences for judgement by God but never goes beyond and talks about anyone specifically whose works have been justified. You simply assume it so, because the fair consequences for good works are stated equally with the fair consequences of evil works.

Another inconsistency of your position is that your position denies anyone has been justified at all before the judgement. If you claim anyone has been justified by faith it is on the same basis as you accuse me in the interpretation of Romans 2:6-15 - POTENTIAL. If any were already JUSTIFIED by faith they would not have to be Justified later unless the previous JUSTIFICATION was only potential. For example, Paul clearly says that Abraham was justified ALREADY while in uncircumcision but NOT IN CIRCUMCISION. However, your doctrine denies that any real justification occurred and if it did it is only potential and temporary as your real justification does not take place until judgement.

Born again children of God do not obey the law of God PERFECTLY and SINLESSLY but that is the standard God requires to satisfy His law and we know that because NO FLESH but Jesus Christ could satisfy it and that is only because he was WITHOUT SIN. Hence, by insisting that the IMPERFECT obedience of Christians is the basis for final justification before God (according to their IMPERFECT works) you reject the righteousness of God that is revealed in the Law and demanded by the law to be justified. This is easy to prove because sin is transgressing the law in only ONE POINT (James 2:10) and yet you have ultimate justification before God based upon an IMPERFECT life of works. Either the law demands satisfaction by a PERFECT life or by an IMPERFECT life. If the former than the latter cannot justify us before God now or ever and thus our lives of works determine rewards in heaven but not heaven. If the latter than there is no need for Jesus Christ or for a perfect life as the law ultimately is justified by a IMPERFECT life according to your position.

This is what Paul indeed says, as numerous texts attested - justification is not by the works of the Law of Moses. And his readers would obviously know that the Law of Moses was given only to Jews.

So, indeed Paul repeatedly asserts that you do not need to be a Jew to be saved.


No. I suggest that there is no evidence at all that Paul ever critiques anyone for believing that ultimate justification is by good works. True, Paul does indeed write that we cannot do good works "on our own" in the absence of the Holy Spirit.

How could he? In Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8, not to mention 2 Cor 5 and other places, Paul affirms ultimate justification by good works. You are placed in the very odd position of explaining why, if Paul does not believe in ultimate justification by works, he writes these words:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

A more clear assertion of ultimate justification by good works cannot be made. And yet you, and others, seem to believe that Paul simply does not mean what he clearly says. It's really hard to argue with that kind of exegesis. On what basis, exactly, do you believe that Paul does not mean what he says?

 

[Andre]

It is one thing to state the fairness of the law and the just consequences for obedience and disobedience but it is quite another thing to point to anyone specifically and say they have done it. Romans 2:6-15 clearly sets forth the JUST consequences for judgement by God but never goes beyond and talks about anyone specifically whose works have been justified.

I do not see what your argument is here. Surely you are not saying "just because Paul does not explicitly "name names", he does not means what he says here:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is a clear, unambiguous declaration that there will be a judgement and that there will be those who get eternal life at that judgement.

Imagine that there is this prophecy in the Bible that "one Saturday June 3, 2010 there will be an examination for entrance to Harvard, and at that exam some will pass and get admitted to Harvard, and others will fail and not be admitted"

If we applied your reasoning to this statement, we could say "well, the prophet never tells us that anyone will actually pass, so we can read this as a declaration of how one could get into Harvard, if admission were based on text scores, but it really cannot be based on that".

That is simply not a legitimate way to read the initial statement.

When a prophet says that there will be a judgement, there will be a judgement.

And when a prophet says that there will be those who get eternal life based on good works, there will indeed be those who get eternal life based on their works.

I politely suggest that there is an "emperor has no clothes" phenomena going on here. Many in the reformed tradition do not know what to do with Romans 2:6-7, so they turn into a declaration of an unattainable standard.

But that obviously cannot work - Paul says there will be such a judgement and that there will be those who eternal life based on good works at that judgement.

 

[Dr. Walter]

This is a very legitimate way to approach this text if the immediate preceding and following context has been dealing with the kind of mind that "THINKETH" they will escape the judgement of God based on being BETTER than others (Rom. 2:3; 17-24).

Suppose at Harvard, it was announced that the "Brain" club are going to give a test to accept entrance into their club. The brain club president hands out their club manual and tells them the answers are all found in the manual and those who pass it will be welcomed into the club but those who do not will be rejected. Passing requires consistent and persistant correctness. The students read the book and begin to compare among themselves and find out that some know the book better than others. Those who know it better begin to boast that they will pass the test while the others will fail because they know the book BETTER than the rest. However, when they get to the test none get a 100% grade and thus they all fail because that is the grade required to be consistent and persistently good in every question.

This is exactly what the Lord's manual - the law requires - 100% as to fail in only "ONE POINT" is to fail the WHOLE LAW completely. James was speaking to professed born again Christians when he set forth the qualifications for passing the Law's test.

However, in spite of making the guidelines of this test very clear, there are those like you, who boast that since they do BETTER in keeping God's commandments they will pass the test, especially, better than those who don't even try to keep His commandments. Their boast is in doing BETTER because they cannot boast in being PERFECT but being PERFECT is the passing score.

I have trusted the Lord Jesus to pass this test FOR ME and IN MY PLACE and so the only judgement of my own works that I foresee in the future at before God is for REWARDS in heaven as Christ has promised me that believers "shall not come into condemnation (judgement) but is already passed from death unto life (perfect tense).

I do not see what your argument is here. Surely you are not saying "just because Paul does not explicitly "name names", he does not means what he says here:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is a clear, unambiguous declaration that there will be a judgement and that there will be those who get eternal life at that judgement.

Imagine that there is this prophecy in the Bible that "one Saturday June 3, 2010 there will be an examination for entrance to Harvard, and at that exam some will pass and get admitted to Harvard, and others will fail and not be admitted"

If we applied your reasoning to this statement, we could say "well, the prophet never tells us that anyone will actually pass, so we can read this as a declaration of how one could get into Harvard, if admission were based on text scores, but it really cannot be based on that".

That is simply not a legitimate way to read the initial statement.

When a prophet says that there will be a judgement, there will be a judgement.

And when a prophet says that there will be those who get eternal life based on good works, there will indeed be those who get eternal life based on their works.

I politely suggest that there is an "emperor has no clothes" phenomena going on here. Many in the reformed tradition do not know what to do with Romans 2:6-7, so they turn into a declaration of an unattainable standard.

But that obviously cannot work - Paul says there will be such a judgement and that there will be those who eternal life based on good works at that judgement.

 

[Andre]

Suppose at Harvard, it was announced that the "Brain" club are going to give a test to accept entrance into their club. The brain club president hands out their club manual and tells them the answers are all found in the manual and those who pass it will be welcomed into the club but those who do not will be rejected. Passing requires consistent and persistant correctness. The students read the book and begin to compare among themselves and find out that some know the book better than others. Those who know it better begin to boast that they will pass the test while the others will fail because they know the book BETTER than the rest. However, when they get to the test none get a 100% grade and thus they all fail because that is the grade required to be consistent and persistently good in every question.

No, this is not a valid analogy.

In the Romans 2 material, Paul says that there will indeed be those who get eternal life:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is what it is. Trying to say that zero persons will get eternal life is to make Paul into a deceptive and misleading writer.

No rational person would write of coming judgement on works and of God handing out eternal life to people at that judgement if that person believed that zero persons would get eternal life that way.

Imagine we applied that standard to prophecy in general.

So, for example, suppose a prophet writes of a great war that will happen in 2025 AD. Well, what if I tried to argue that no one will be able to fight in that war? That is the kind of reasoning you are applying in respect to the Romans 2 passage. The problem is that such an approach makes the prophecy false.

A statement that something will happen to zero persons is frankly, a nonsense statement.

If Paul says there will be a judgement, there will be a judgement. And he would have to be confused or deceptive to then speak of people getting eternal life at that judgement, based on works, if he believes that zero people would get eternal life in that way.

I cannot emphasize this enough: prophets do not make statements about what will happen to zero people.

If Paul really wanted to write of an unattainable standard, he would have made the case differently. Besides, we still have this text from Romans 8 which clearly shows that the awarding of eternal life based on how one has lived one's life:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,..

And, finally, there is no Biblical evidence to support your implication that "perfect" behaviour is required for an ultimate justification based on good works.

 

[Andre]

I want to be clear: I am, of course, aware that Paul could indeed have mounted an argument where he sets forth an unattainable standard for the awarding of eternal life and then gone on to show that eternal life is actually achieved in some other way.

But what Paul actually writes shows that this is not what he is thinking. Romans 2 begins with Paul's critique of the self-righteous man. Fine. Then comes the warning about the future judgement based on deeds.

That warning does not function as a warning if Paul is writing about an unattainable standard.

Imagine this scenario. A parent scolds a misbehaving child. The parent then warns the child that those children who behave will get a lollipop and those who do not will have to go to bed early (with no lollipop).

How is this possibly a warning if is impossible for the child to achieve a state where one gets a lollipop based on good behaviuor? A warning in advance of a "deeds" judgement is only a warning if there is a possibility of changing one's path and achieving the "good side" of the coming judgement.

If the child thinks its impossible to get the lollipop, then the warning has no meaning for him - it cannot affect his behaviour.

And yet this is precisely why the child is warned - to change his behaviour.

 

[Andre]

However, in spite of making the guidelines of this test very clear, there are those like you, who boast that since they do BETTER in keeping God's commandments they will pass the test, especially, better than those who don't even try to keep His commandments. Their boast is in doing BETTER because they cannot boast in being PERFECT but being PERFECT is the passing score.

Perfect is not the passing score - you will not be able to produce any scriptural evidence to support the position that one would need to be perfect in order to pass a coming justification by good works.

This is a commonly held belief - but there is no specifically Biblical evidence for it.

 

[Andre]

Another inconsistency of your position is that your position denies anyone has been justified at all before the judgement. If you claim anyone has been justified by faith it is on the same basis as you accuse me in the interpretation of Romans 2:6-15 - POTENTIAL. If any were already JUSTIFIED by faith they would not have to be Justified later unless the previous JUSTIFICATION was only potential. For example, Paul clearly says that Abraham was justified ALREADY while in uncircumcision but NOT IN CIRCUMCISION. However, your doctrine denies that any real justification occurred and if it did it is only potential and temporary as your real justification does not take place until judgement.

No. My argument is not subject to this critique. I have, at least once, articulated what I believe the Pauline position to be.

Paul can indeed speak of people like Abraham as having already been justified even though Paul believes in a final justification by good works.

How does this work? Through the work of the Holy Spirit. One can indeed say that a person is justified when they enter into faith precisely because the certainty of the transforming power of the Spirit ensures that, on that final day, God will truthfully say "you persisted in doing good".

There would indeed be an inconsistency in my position, if it were not for the assurance that the Holy Spirit, given based on faith alone, transforms the believer:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers

There you have it - those who believe are most assuredly transformed. Thus, Paul can and does write of justification as already achieved on the basis of faith, yet finally consummated on the basis of deeds.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Perfect is not the passing score - you will not be able to produce any scriptural evidence to support the position that one would need to be perfect in order to pass a coming justification by good works.

This is a commonly held belief - but there is no specifically Biblical evidence for it.

Therefore you beleive the standard of righteousness demanded by the Law is not sinlessness? That righteousness demanded by the law is ALMOST perfect? Do you believe the Law's standard is different than the "righteousness of God" and do you believe that God's righteousness is ALMOST perfert or merely CHARACTERISTICALLY perfect?

You repudiate James definition of the law's standard? To sin in "ONE" point is to come under the condemnation of the law as a sinner! What does the law require then to not be condemned as a sinner??? Just reverse it! To be approved by the righteousness of the Law is to fail in "NOT ONE POINT." What is that? SINLESS PERFECTION!

Why would Jesus ever tell a man seeking eternal life that there is NONE GOOD but one and that is God if "good" by God's standard means ALMOST PERFECT????

Why would Jesus have to be "WITHOUT SIN" in order to fulfill the law's standard of righteousness if that standard only demanded to be ALMOST PERFECT or ALMOST sinless or merely CHARACTERISTICALLY sinless???

God has only one standard to judge the works of men whether they are "good" or "evil" and that is His law and it has one standard of righteousness - SINLESS PERFECTION.

That is why no saint stands before the law to be judged by their works if they will go to heaven or hell. That is why justification is by faith ALONE in Christ ALONE by grace ALONE as nothing else will satisfy the Law's demands for righteousness.

The works of the saints are judged for REWARDS and the standard of rewards is not SINLESS perfection but whether they originated from the Holy Spirit working through the regenerate nature of man.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You confuse the work of Jesus Christ in justification before God with the work of The Holy Spirit in regeneration and its fruit of sanctification within man. As long as you confuse the work and the two Persons of the Godhead you will never understand the truth of God's Word. Justification by works before men is the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit and is progressive. Justification by faith before God is the finished work provided by Jesus Christ. Confuse the two and Roman Catholic soteriology is the logical conclusion - fusion between justification and works.

No. My argument is not subject to this critique. I have, at least once, articulated what I believe the Pauline position to be.

Paul can indeed speak of people like Abraham as having already been justified even though Paul believes in a final justification by good works.

How does this work? Through the work of the Holy Spirit. One can indeed say that a person is justified when they enter into faith precisely because the certainty of the transforming power of the Spirit ensures that, on that final day, God will truthfully say "you persisted in doing good".

There would indeed be an inconsistency in my position, if it were not for the assurance that the Holy Spirit, given based on faith alone, transforms the believer:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers

There you have it - those who believe are most assuredly transformed. Thus, Paul can and does write of justification as already achieved on the basis of faith, yet finally consummated on the basis of deeds.

 

[Andre]

Therefore you beleive the standard of righteousness demanded by the Law is not sinlessness?

I never said that. I said that there is no Biblical evidence that the "passing mark" for the ultimate justification by good works is perfection.

You repudiate James definition of the law's standard? To sin in "ONE" point is to come under the condemnation of the law as a sinner!

I am not repudiating James. I entirely agree that to break the law at one point means that you have broken it at all points. But that does not mean that you still cannot ultimately "get into heaven" even if you are deemed to have broken the law at every point. A person who has broken the law at every point could, on balance be a person who has been molded into Christlikeness.

Again, there simply is no Biblical evidence that perfection is the standard for the Romans 2 judgement.

The works of the saints are judged for REWARDS and the standard of rewards is not SINLESS perfection but whether they originated from the Holy Spirit working through the regenerate nature of man.

Does Paul say here that you get rewards for doing good deeds? Or eternal life itself?

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Does Paul here say that you get "rewards" for living in the Spirit? Or life?

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

 

[Andre]

You confuse the work of Jesus Christ in justification before God with the work of The Holy Spirit in regeneration and its fruit of sanctification within man.

This begs the question at issue - you are simply stating your position. Obviously I do not believe I am "confusing" the two.

Why would a person who believes that good deeds are not the basis of ultimate justification write this?

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Again, you can say this is an unattainable standard if you wish. But then you have Paul saying that there will be a judgement at which eternal life is awarded according to works, but zero persons will get eternal life in this manner.

This is simply an incorrect way to speak. You, and many others of course, are implicitly hoping that we will overlook the rather obvious silliness of a prophet saying that there will a judgement at which God will give eternal life to those do good works, while all the time believing that there will be zero people in that "those".

No competent person would say such a thing. If Paul wanted to say this was an unattainable standard, he most certainly would not express it using the words that 2:6-7 uses.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You agree that the law's standard of righteous is sinlessness - not one point broken but you deny that God will use this as His standard of righteousness on judgement day! What other standard of righteousness does God have?

Do you believe that Christ could have passed the mark if ONE SIN was legitmately committed by Him? If not, then why would God demand a higher standard for Christ than for his people? You believe final judgement has another standard than it had for Christ! A lower standard?

You admit that James gives the SAINTS the correct standard of righteousness demanded by the Law in that it condemns as a sinner those who violate only "ONE POINT" and yet you believe a LOWER standard will be used by God on the greatest day of judgement???

Here is your problem. The same law with the same standard that judged Christ will be the same law with the same standard that judges all who come before God on the basis of their works. If you don't want to come into that judgement then the only option is to trust Christ to have ALREADY HAVE PAID THAT JUDGEMENT IN FULL for you. That is what the gospel is all about! You are rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ. You are making the promise of Christ non-effect "whosoever beleiveth...SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE". You simply do not understand the gospel.

I never said that. I said that there is no Biblical evidence that the "passing mark" for the ultimate justification by good works is perfection.


I am not repudiating James. I entirely agree that to break the law at one point means that you have broken it at all points. But that does not mean that you still cannot ultimately "get into heaven" even if you are deemed to have broken the law at every point. A person who has broken the law at every point could, on balance be a person who has been molded into Christlikeness.

Again, there simply is no Biblical evidence that perfection is the standard for the Romans 2 judgement.


Does Paul say here that you get rewards for doing good deeds? Or eternal life itself?

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Does Paul here say that you get "rewards" for living in the Spirit? Or life?

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

 

[Dr. Walter]

This is not unattainable by Christ and therefore obtained by all who are "in Christ." What it is unattainable for are those outside of Christ that "THINKETH" as those explicitly described preceding this text in Romans 2:1-5 and by those following this text in Romans 2:17-24. They are the ones it is unattainable for.

For all who stand that day IN HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS no sin can be found - none at all. For al those who stand that day IN THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUS GOOD WORKS none shall obtain eternal life.

Why would a person who believes that good deeds are not the basis of ultimate justification write this?

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Again, you can say this is an unattainable standard if you wish. But then you have Paul saying that there will be a judgement at which eternal life is awarded according to works, but zero persons will get eternal life in this manner.

 

[Andre]

You agree that the law's standard of righteous is sinlessness - not one point broken but you deny that God will use this as His standard of righteousness on judgement day! What other standard of righteousness does God have?

Yes I do deny that perfection is required. I suggest that it is clear that having been deemed guilty of breaking the law at each point does not mean that you cannot meet some unspecified standard of good deeds.

And it is not surprising to me that we are not told the standard. As Paul says, it is the job of the Holy Spirit to get this done. So as long as we remain in faith, our salvation is indeed assured.

Do you believe that Christ could have passed the mark if ONE SIN was legitmately committed by Him? If not, then why would God demand a higher standard for Christ than for his people? You believe final judgement has another standard than it had for Christ! A lower standard?

Jesus is indeed a special case, so it is not at all incoherent to assert that the "standard" is "lower" for us. Jesus was indeed sinless and this somehow made Him able to bear our sins for us. But I see no Biblical reason to believe that we need to perfect to attain salvation. We cannot invoke a generalizaiton that "what is true for Jesus is always true of us".

Besides, I question the fundamental implication that there was ever an issue of Jesus "needing to get saved". But I grant this is a complicated question that I have not thought much about.

You admit that James gives the SAINTS the correct standard of righteousness demanded by the Law in that it condemns as a sinner those who violate only "ONE POINT" and yet you believe a LOWER standard will be used by God on the greatest day of judgement???

Please be careful about quoting what James says. He does not say we will be condemned, he says we will be deemed guilty of breaking the law.

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it

Again, there is no logical necessity to conclude that a person who breaks the law does not, through their "good deeds" meet some (unspecified) standard of good deeds.

Here is your problem. The same law with the same standard that judged Christ will be the same law with the same standard that judges all who come before God on the basis of their works.

Where is your Biblical justification for this statement?

If you don't want to come into that judgement then the only option is to trust Christ to have ALREADY HAVE PAID THAT JUDGEMENT IN FULL for you. That is what the gospel is all about! You are rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am doing no such thing. I am disagreeing with you about the nature of justification. And I most certainly have not denied that Jesus' death on the cross brings salvation.

You simply do not understand the gospel.

I see no evidence in this or the other thread that any fundamental errors in my position have been demonstrated. After all, I am the one who believes this statement:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

For some reason, you seem to think that this is not a true statement. And saying its an expression of an unattainable standard is to change what Paul is clearly saying.

Again, you would have us believe that Paul is saying something that is tru of zero persons. I have already argued in detail, and I believe I have not been challenged, that Paul's warning does not function as a warning if it is impossible to not meet the 2:6-7 standard.

I suggest that you need to actually deal with such arguments and put the "you do not understand the gospel" stuff on the back-burner.

 

[Dr. Walter]

If Jesus is a special case then you don't believe in substitionary atonement?? If the case with Jesus is not our case then no substitutionary atonement is necessary as he would be a substitute FOR US. So your argument breaks down completely unless you deny substitutionary atonement.

Judgement cannnot be processed apart from God's own righteousness which is manifested in "the law and the prophets" and in "Jesus Christ." There is no other standard and so your argument breaks down completely unless you can show that God has some other standard of righteousenss other than His OWN righteousness??? The very idea places God's own righteousness in jepordy.

Jesus never needed to get saved but He needed to satisfy EXACTLY what was needed for YOU to be saved. You are denying he satisfied it completely but rather YOU must satisfy it by your own works.

There is no Guilt where there is no law violated and where there is law violated the guilt is a consequence of the laws condemnation of that violation.

Your position is exactly the position of the Judaizers in Galatians and your position does exactly what theirs did - repudiates Jesus Christ as the complete satisfaction for sin - repudiates the grace of God and repudiates the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yes I do deny that perfection is required. I suggest that it is clear that having been deemed guilty of breaking the law at each point does not mean that you cannot meet some unspecified standard of good deeds.

And it is not surprising to me that we are not told the standard. As Paul says, it is the job of the Holy Spirit to get this done. So as long as we remain in faith, our salvation is indeed assured.


Jesus is indeed a special case, so it is not at all incoherent to assert that the "standard" is "lower" for us. Jesus was indeed sinless and this somehow made Him able to bear our sins for us. But I see no Biblical reason to believe that we need to perfect to attain salvation. We cannot invoke a generalizaiton that "what is true for Jesus is always true of us".

Besides, I question the fundamental implication that there was ever an issue of Jesus "needing to get saved". But I grant this is a complicated question that I have not thought much about.


Please be careful about quoting what James says. He does not say we will be condemned, he says we will be deemed guilty of breaking the law.

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it

Again, there is no logical necessity to conclude that a person who breaks the law does not, through their "good deeds" meet some (unspecified) standard of good deeds.


Where is your Biblical justification for this statement?


I am doing no such thing. I am disagreeing with you about the nature of justification. And I most certainly have not denied that Jesus' death on the cross brings salvation.


I see no evidence in this or the other thread that any fundamental errors in my position have been demonstrated. After all, I am the one who believes this statement:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

For some reason, you seem to think that this is not a true statement. And saying its an expression of an unattainable standard is to change what Paul is clearly saying.

Again, you would have us believe that Paul is saying something that is tru of zero persons. I have already argued in detail, and I believe I have not been challenged, that Paul's warning does not function as a warning if it is impossible to not meet the 2:6-7 standard.

I suggest that you need to actually deal with such arguments and put the "you do not understand the gospel" stuff on the back-burner.