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Featured Jesus THE Creator - Part 1

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus is YHWH, and the Father is YHWH, and the Holy Spirit is YHWH, then HOW can any of them be "subordinate", or "greater" than the other?
     
    #21 SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    So not a five point Calvinist, but a three pointer, all three bogus in my view, and also a disbeliever of eternal security, which I believe is true. No wonder we see many biblical issues differently. But to end on a high note, we seem to both believe Christ died for all mankind, and therefore nobody was predestined to Hades and Gehenna.
     
    #22 Van, Oct 29, 2020
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    you have again not read correctly what I have written! :Rolleyes
     
    #23 SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Once again you misrepresent my view. Can you not grasp the difference between operating subordinately and being subordinate? Have you not studied the Trinity triangle where some things are equal and some are not equal? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God, but they are not all the same Person.
     
    #24 Van, Oct 29, 2020
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I stand corrected, you seem to have said 4 of the 5 (excluding the P) are bogus. That is the same as my view.
     
    #25 Van, Oct 29, 2020
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    How can the Father have created through Jesus Christ? This makes Him "greater" in the Godhead!
     
    #26 SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    You are importing error in your analysis. Operating subordinately does not make a Person inferior.

    When my children were young, and they asked me to pick them up, did I become inferior? :)
     
    #27 Van, Oct 29, 2020
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    not true!
     
    #28 SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I meant Steven. Thanks for the correction.

    The reference to Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father seems an illusion to a King (Father) sitting on the throne and the “hand of the king” standing by his side. The king’s “hand” had all the authority of the king and answered only to the king.

    I understand all illusions of the relationship within the Godhead is condescension so that we can understand a little but not fully.

    I’m thinking whether there was an eternal subordination within the perfect unity and equality of the Godhead? You seem to think not. What are the implications of eternal subordination?

    peace to you
     
    #29 canadyjd, Oct 29, 2020
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Not my will but my Father's is operating subordinately. Creating the world through the Son, means the Son was operating subordinately.
     
    #30 Van, Oct 29, 2020
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    then we fall into the error of the Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe that Jehovah is the only God, Jesus Christ, is "a god" (though they call Jesus God in Isaiah 9:6 in their version!), and the Holy Spirit is not even a person. If, as the Bible teaches that The Three Persons are YHWH, then it must follow that They are 100% EQUAL, or else there are "degrees" within the Godhead, which sounds like some eastern nonsense!
     
    #31 SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    is there ONE text from the OT that says this? When, for example it says in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created..." Who is this?
     
    #32 SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    for starters, Jesus cannot be Almighty God, nor the Holy Spirit.
     
    #33 SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    and then there can be no Trinity!
     
    #34 SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020
  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think eternal subordination leads to that. JW deny eternal existence of the 2nd person of the Godhead. They believe he is a created angel ( Michael) that became a “god” because of obedience to the Father.

    Is there a problem with affirming the attributes of deity with each of the persons within the Godhead and also affirm functional subordination?

    peace to you
     
    #35 canadyjd, Oct 29, 2020
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I was mainly on about the fact that the JWs have more than one God. Functional subordination within the Godhead, based on what the Bible says, is limited to the Post-Incarnational period of Jesus' life on earth. In the OT we also read of God "sending" His Angel (The Angel of the Lord), on Missions, which is Jesus Christ. However, as we can see from Exodus 3, where The Angel of the Lord appears to Moses in the Burning Bush, that this same Person, also identifies Himself as God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He is the One Who said to Moses (not the Father), "I AM Who I AM", and that His Name is Yahweh, which in the Hebrew is from the same root of "AM", showing that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, and therefore EQUAL in all things with the Father and Holy Spirit. We must only be guided by the Bible, which never teaches any "subordination" prior to the Incarnation.
     
    #36 SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Van makes it a habit to look "interesting" when he calls out those here such as Archangel and JoJ on the Greek!
     
    #37 Yeshua1, Oct 29, 2020
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I think I see your point. You are saying the 2nd person of the Godhead created all things without “input” from God the Father or God Holy Spirit. Is that your point?

    If so, it doesn’t solve the issue of subordination. By claiming the 2nd person isn’t functionally subordinate, you make the other two persons within the Godhead subordinate to the 2nd, don’t you?

    peace to you
     
    #38 canadyjd, Oct 29, 2020
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is right now in His role as the great High Priest and think that His subordination was only while here on the earth as He was then accepting the limitations of the human flesh!
     
    #39 Yeshua1, Oct 29, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Daniel prophecy/vision shows that Jesus and the Father ARE CO RULERS AND kINGS!
     
    #40 Yeshua1, Oct 29, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
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