Jesus THE Creator - Part 1

[SavedByGrace]

Yes

If Jesus is YHWH, and the Father is YHWH, and the Holy Spirit is YHWH, then HOW can any of them be "subordinate", or "greater" than the other?

 

[Van]

You mean unbiblical? I used to believe that all 5 were, until about 20 years ago, I changed on the P, as convinced from the Lord's own words in John's Gospel, when I read them in the Greek text (the English versions do not translate them!). The L is somehing that many "Reformed" also reject, as did Calvin, Baxter, Luther, Melanchthon, Bullinger, Latimer, Cranmer, Coverdale, etc, etc

So not a five point Calvinist, but a three pointer, all three bogus in my view, and also a disbeliever of eternal security, which I believe is true. No wonder we see many biblical issues differently. But to end on a high note, we seem to both believe Christ died for all mankind, and therefore nobody was predestined to Hades and Gehenna.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So not a five point Calvinist, but a three pointer, all three bogus in my view, and also a disbeliever of eternal security, which I believe is true.

you have again not read correctly what I have written!

 

[Van]

If Jesus is YHWH, and the Father is YHWH, and the Holy Spirit is YHWH, then HOW can any of them be "subordinate", or "greater" than the other?

Once again you misrepresent my view. Can you not grasp the difference between operating subordinately and being subordinate? Have you not studied the Trinity triangle where some things are equal and some are not equal? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God, but they are not all the same Person.

 

[Van]

you have again not read correctly what I have written!

I stand corrected, you seem to have said 4 of the 5 (excluding the P) are bogus. That is the same as my view.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Once again you misrepresent my view. Can you not grasp the difference between operating subordinately and being subordinate? Have you not studied the Trinity triangle where some things are equal and some are not equal? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God, but they are not all the same Person.

How can the Father have created through Jesus Christ? This makes Him "greater" in the Godhead!

 

[Van]

How can the Father have created through Jesus Christ? This makes Him "greater" in the Godhead!

You are importing error in your analysis. Operating subordinately does not make a Person inferior.

When my children were young, and they asked me to pick them up, did I become inferior?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Operating subordinately

not true!

 

[canadyjd]

Jesus Christ is Yahweh, that is, the Eternal, Unchanging, and Uncreated God. This is also true of the Father and the Holy Spirit. As such, in the Godhead, essentially, there can never be any "degree" of hierarchy, or subordination, as The Three are absolutely EQUAL. Post Incarnation Jesus is no longer "subordinate" to the Father, which is clear from Scriptures like John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-11; and Hebrews 2:7, 9, better if this can be read in the Greek, but I am happy to go into any details, if needed. Do you mean Steven in Acts chapter 7? Interesting, that in Psalm 110:1, we read of Adoni (Jesus) at the "right hand" of Yahweh (the Father). In verse 5, according to the better Hebrew manuscripts, "Yahweh (Jesus) at your Right Hand (the Father)". Where we have Two Persons as Yahweh.

Yes, I meant Steven. Thanks for the correction.

The reference to Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father seems an illusion to a King (Father) sitting on the throne and the “hand of the king” standing by his side. The king’s “hand” had all the authority of the king and answered only to the king.

I understand all illusions of the relationship within the Godhead is condescension so that we can understand a little but not fully.

I’m thinking whether there was an eternal subordination within the perfect unity and equality of the Godhead? You seem to think not. What are the implications of eternal subordination?

peace to you

 

[Van]

not true!

Not my will but my Father's is operating subordinately. Creating the world through the Son, means the Son was operating subordinately.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I’m thinking if there was an eternal subordination within the perfect unity of the Godhead?

then we fall into the error of the Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe that Jehovah is the only God, Jesus Christ, is "a god" (though they call Jesus God in Isaiah 9:6 in their version!), and the Holy Spirit is not even a person. If, as the Bible teaches that The Three Persons are YHWH, then it must follow that They are 100% EQUAL, or else there are "degrees" within the Godhead, which sounds like some eastern nonsense!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Creating the world through the Son, means the Son was operating subordinately.

is there ONE text from the OT that says this? When, for example it says in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created..." Who is this?

 

[SavedByGrace]

What are the implications of eternal subordination?

for starters, Jesus cannot be Almighty God, nor the Holy Spirit.

 

[SavedByGrace]

What are the implications of eternal subordination?

and then there can be no Trinity!

 

[canadyjd]

then we fall into the error of the Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe that Jehovah is the only God, Jesus Christ, is "a god" (though they call Jesus God in Isaiah 9:6 in their version!), and the Holy Spirit is not even a person. If, as the Bible teaches that The Three Persons are YHWH, then it must follow that They are 100% EQUAL, or else there are "degrees" within the Godhead, which sounds like some eastern nonsense!

I don’t think eternal subordination leads to that. JW deny eternal existence of the 2nd person of the Godhead. They believe he is a created angel ( Michael) that became a “god” because of obedience to the Father.

Is there a problem with affirming the attributes of deity with each of the persons within the Godhead and also affirm functional subordination?

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

I don’t think eternal subordination leads to that. JW deny eternal existence of the 2nd person of the Godhead. They believe he is a created angel ( Michael) that became a “god” because of obedience to the Father.

Is there a problem with affirming the attributes of deity with each of the persons within the Godhead and also affirm functional subordination?

peace to you

I was mainly on about the fact that the JWs have more than one God. Functional subordination within the Godhead, based on what the Bible says, is limited to the Post-Incarnational period of Jesus' life on earth. In the OT we also read of God "sending" His Angel (The Angel of the Lord), on Missions, which is Jesus Christ. However, as we can see from Exodus 3, where The Angel of the Lord appears to Moses in the Burning Bush, that this same Person, also identifies Himself as God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He is the One Who said to Moses (not the Father), "I AM Who I AM", and that His Name is Yahweh, which in the Hebrew is from the same root of "AM", showing that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, and therefore EQUAL in all things with the Father and Holy Spirit. We must only be guided by the Bible, which never teaches any "subordination" prior to the Incarnation.

 

[Yeshua1]

wow! I really cannot understand some people who just like to argue and disagree? your response here shows that you are very much out of your depth on Greek grammar! Please don't post any more foolish stuff here.

Van makes it a habit to look "interesting" when he calls out those here such as Archangel and JoJ on the Greek!

 

[canadyjd]

If Jesus is YHWH, and the Father is YHWH, and the Holy Spirit is YHWH, then HOW can any of them be "subordinate", or "greater" than the other?

I think I see your point. You are saying the 2nd person of the Godhead created all things without “input” from God the Father or God Holy Spirit. Is that your point?

If so, it doesn’t solve the issue of subordination. By claiming the 2nd person isn’t functionally subordinate, you make the other two persons within the Godhead subordinate to the 2nd, don’t you?

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for the clear statement.

I agree with you about creation/sustaining universe.

Interesting concept that subordination only occurred with incarnation. I will need to meditate on that. Does that subordination continue?

Off hand, Steven had a vision of Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father. Is that a position of subordination?

edit Thomas to Steven

Peace to you

Jesus is right now in His role as the great High Priest and think that His subordination was only while here on the earth as He was then accepting the limitations of the human flesh!

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus Christ is Yahweh, that is, the Eternal, Unchanging, and Uncreated God. This is also true of the Father and the Holy Spirit. As such, in the Godhead, essentially, there can never be any "degree" of hierarchy, or subordination, as The Three are absolutely EQUAL. Post Incarnation Jesus is no longer "subordinate" to the Father, which is clear from Scriptures like John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-11; and Hebrews 2:7, 9, better if this can be read in the Greek, but I am happy to go into any details, if needed. Do you mean Steven in Acts chapter 7? Interesting, that in Psalm 110:1, we read of Adoni (Jesus) at the "right hand" of Yahweh (the Father). In verse 5, according to the better Hebrew manuscripts, "Yahweh (Jesus) at your Right Hand (the Father)". Where we have Two Persons as Yahweh.

Daniel prophecy/vision shows that Jesus and the Father ARE CO RULERS AND kINGS!