John 10:15 and the Atonement

[Wes Outwest]

Because Jesus does not call it "REGENERATION"! Neither does the Old Testament! Calvinists call it "regeneration"! Jesus calls it "Being Born Again", and being born again is not something that God DOES TO US as You want it to be, it is something that we do when we learn the truth and open the door to the Spirit of God!

Being born again is not strictly a Religious experience, one can be "born again" in whatever calling in life one may be in.

You would have us believe that man cannot be born again without first being "regenerated". You would have us believe that God has to do the work in us before we can believe in Him. I do not accept that because although there are scriptural opinions regarding it, Jesus does not say it! Jesus says we are to hear and believe. Hearing and believing is "activity" that we humans are to do! And we do that in our spirit, thus that activity is not works! The word of God quickens us in our spirit, and persuades us into belief. Our belief motivates us to change which is "rebirth". The more of God's word we "take in", the better our understanding becomes and the greater our faith grows. God saves only those with Faith in Him!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Because Jesus does not call it "REGENERATION"! Neither does the Old Testament! Calvinists call it "regeneration"!

Regeneration is an English term, used theologically to speak of being born again. That is what regeneration means. That is why that term is used.

We use many terms that Jesus didn't use. In fact, we do not use a single term that Jesus did use. All of our terms are English words which Chrsit never used, and many of them are words that communicate a biblical concept (such as Trinity, Canon, etc).

being born again is not something that God DOES TO US as You want it to be, it is something that we do when we learn the truth and open the door to the Spirit of God!

You do not give birth to yourself, either physically or spiritually. Every time you see the idea of "born again" in Scripture, it is something that is done to you. JOhn 1:13 makes this explicit, as do other passage. Being born again is something that God does to us. Again, you err because you do not know the Scriptures.

Being born again is not strictly a Religious experience,

It is in a theological discussion, which is what this is and which is how the Bible uses the concept.

You would have us believe that man cannot be born again without first being "regenerated".

No, being regenerated is being born again. A person cannot exercise faith until he/she has been regenerated. Don't confuse things with wrong terminology.

You would have us believe that God has to do the work in us before we can believe in Him.

Yes, and God would have us believe the same thing. He said You cannot come to me because my Father hasn't given it to you. He said you cannot understand becuase you are not one of mine. He said many similar things.

I do not accept that because although there are scriptural opinions regarding it, Jesus does not say it!

No, Jesus did say it.

John 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. ... 47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

Notice the word of ability in there. You cannot do it. The word "hear" is used in the sense of understand, and the reason is given in v. 44 ... They cannot hear because they are in the wrong family. They have not yet been born into the right family.

Much other proof could be given for this.

Jesus says we are to hear and believe. Hearing and believing is "activity" that we humans are to do!

Yes, indeed. You are sounding like a Calvinist when you say that.

The word of God quickens us in our spirit, and persuades us into belief.

What do you think "quickening" is? It is being made alive.

Our belief motivates us to change which is "rebirth".

No, the rebirth motivates us to change. You have the idea backwards. You cannot change until you have new heart and a new life.

God saves only those with Faith in Him!

You are sounding like a Calvinist.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Pastor Larry;

Actually, it is the right translation.

It is not a translation at all. In fact I wouldn't call it a translation. It is rather what man thinks the word is saying and not what it is says directly. A translation is where you take a word in another language and give it the best possible equalent in the Language you are translating it to. Something that should be done with honesty with out adding to it or taking away from it. The Niv is a thought for thought version of men and not of language it self. This allows for man to insert what he believes. This makes the NIV the words of men and not a true word of God. This is where you quotation marks came from. The so called translator added to it his own ideas of hopw it should read and not what it really said.

Your understanding makes no sense. Why the fool who says there is no God continue by saying that no one does good and no one seeks God? That makes no sense. Then you consider the fact that Paul quotes in Rom 3. Look at the context. Paul says that all men are sinners and no one seeks God.

It doesn't make sense to you because you are influenced by the teaching you received from Calvinist.
If you had studdied scripture without the influence of men you might be seeing a different view.
You say it makes no sense. Then what makes sense? That Paul would intentionally lie by quotation. You say He is saying that "no one seeks God". But this isn't true. Everytime man prays he is seeking God and from the first man to the present there has always been men who seek God. Paul doesn't say specifically that only sinners do not seek God. Unless you are admitting that this is what a sinner says in his heart, in fact he doesn't say no one seek's God. He quotes it and is quoting a sinner. This is all that makes sense. Maybe you should study it further. because now you seem to want to say that the sinner doesn't seek God but then you deny that this is about the sinner.

You would have us believe that Paul quoted a passage that does not support him.

Not true this is only your assumption. I maintain that Paul is supporting what he is saying by quoting Psalm 14. It is you who disagrees with what I originally said not Paul.

When Paul, writing under the inspiration of hte Spirit, quotes David to make point about all men being sinners,

Well if you really agreed with that then there would be no problem but you claim that this is not about what the sinner has in his heart. You make this unfounded claim based on men's words and not God which is why you quoted from the NIV.

Is that the best I can do? What else do we need? We can speak with clarity with the authority of God's word.

We need a lot more than the ideas of men that's for sure. And you don't speak with clarity with the authority of God's word. Rather you look for what version best supports your limited view of Christianity.
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

[Wes Outwest]

No, Jesus did say it.

John 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. ... 47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

Notice the word of ability in there. You cannot do it. The word "hear" is used in the sense of understand, and the reason is given in v. 44 ... They cannot hear because they are in the wrong family. They have not yet been born into the right family.

Who do you say Jesus was addressing in John 8:43-47? It certainly was not Gentiles! It was a specific group of Jews! Don't misapply the scripture! The concept is that a certain mindset is not of God! Who is demonstrated as having that mindset? Who is it said of that "they will hear my words" YES! the gentiles! I have my origin among the gentiles, I hear the words of Jesus! I believe in Jesus! Yes, I, a human being, have heard the words that are translated, according to most scholars, ACCURATELY FROM THE ORIGINAL TONGUE TO THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE which I am able to hear and understand, and I believe them! God gave them to me to hear and to understand, and God loses nothing if I refuse to do so, but I lose everything if I refuse to do so. It is up to me to hear, it is up to me to believe! God has finished HIS work and rested after giving to mankind every reason for man to believe in Him....I DO!

Long before I was born God finished ALL the work associated with the redemption of man and the Salvation of man. He gave us the word of God long before any of us living today existed. It is up to us to HEAR and BELIEVE! By doing so we are doing the Work of God! Those who don't, ...lose! And there ain't nuttin' you or I can do about that! All we can do is give them the opportunity to hear the Word of God and believe!

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Wes;
well said A Men
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
In fact I wouldn't call it a translation.

But you did already. And you were right. Translation is when you take the original text and render it in another language. THat is what happened. The fact that it doesn't agree with your position doesn't make it wrong.

Your suggestion about who is speaking is so far off base it should not even be entertained. The fool said "There is no God." The rest of it is what God said.

The Niv is a thought for thought version of men and not of language it self. This allows for man to insert what he believes. This makes the NIV the words of men and not a true word of God. This is where you quotation marks came from.

Well, wrong on several counts. First, I didn't even quote the NIV so I don't know why you brought that up. SEcond, every major translation except the KJV has the quotes, and rightly so. Third, who in the world do you think "they" are? It is clearly the fools, and someone other than the fool is saying it. Fourth, why would Paul quote a passage in support of a doctrine if it didn't support it?

I am telling you, your position doesn't even make sense. If you sit down and think about it a bit, you will see that.

It doesn't make sense to you because you are influenced by the teaching you received from Calvinist.

Wrong again. I wasn't influenced on this matter by Calvinists. I was taught by Scripture. It makes no sense because it doesn't fit with the text.

If you had studdied scripture without the influence of men you might be seeing a different view.

I did, for a very long time, and back then I was an arminian. When I began to wrestle with Scripture itself and put aside philosophies, I became a Calvinist because that is what God's word teaches.

Then what makes sense? That Paul would intentionally lie by quotation.

Paul didn't lie. This is Scripture.

You say He is saying that "no one seeks God". But this isn't true. Everytime man prays he is seeking God and from the first man to the present there has always been men who seek God.

They are not seeking God. They are seeking after the idea of God, but as Rom 1 tells us, they have ignored God.

Paul doesn't say specifically that only sinners do not seek God. Unless you are admitting that this is what a sinner says in his heart, in fact he doesn't say no one seek's God. He quotes it and is quoting a sinner. This is all that makes sense. Maybe you should study it further. because now you seem to want to say that the sinner doesn't seek God but then you deny that this is about the sinner.

Paul's point is about both Jew and Gentile being under sin (v. 9). They do not seek God because of their sinfulness. I have studied this text in depth. It is obvious that you have not. You give cause to wonder if you have even read it carefully. Paul is not quoting a sinner. Those are the words of God about sinner, used in support of hte truth that all men are sinners.

Well if you really agreed with that then there would be no problem but you claim that this is not about what the sinner has in his heart. You make this unfounded claim based on men's words and not God which is why you quoted from the NIV.

I didn't quote from teh NIV. This is about what the sinner has in his heart. God is telling you that the sinner does not like God in his heart. You say that this is what the sinner says about himself, but then you say that the sinner is seeking God. And you claim that makes sense?

We need a lot more than the ideas of men that's for sure.

Which is why Paul quoted Scripture, and why I did the same thing.

And you don't speak with clarity with the authority of God's word. Rather you look for what version best supports your limited view of Christianity.

I did speak with teh clarity of God's word. God said what he said. You are denying it. Every version says the same thing. You can get them out and look.

I can't believe this conversation is taking place. I daresay you cannot find one person that supports you. If you can, I would be interested in seeing i so I can see how they come to their conclusion.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Who do you say Jesus was addressing in John 8:43-47?

It is quite clear from the context that he was addressing unbelievers.

The concept is that a certain mindset is not of God!

Exactly. Which is what I said. The unbelieving mindset is not from God. That is why it rejects God.

... I am able to hear and understand, and I believe them!

Which is evidence of the very truth that you are arguing against. If God did not regenerate your mind, you would never have understood these words. That natural man cannot understand them.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Pastor Larry,
The "word of God", What we call the Holy Bible which is available in a myriad of translations, paraphrases, and renditions, is what regenerated my mind! If the bible is what you call "God", or "the Holy Spirit", then so be it, God regenerated me! However, I call the bible the word of God a device or tool that God gave to man to inform man about God and to introduce man to God. My God is not constrained within a Corinthian Leather bound book. My God is very much alive, I talk to Him daily. But there was a time when I did not do that because I did not know God, I did not know about God. The word God was just part of a phrase I used to communicate anger or disgust or frustration with. It was not until I picked up the bible and started reading it that my mind became renewed, regenerated if you will, and that my whole life took on a new meaning and attitude because I believed what I found in the Bible, then started believing in Jesus, and now that I know God somewhat, I believe all the more in Him because of HIS Holy word delivered to man for the very purpose of teaching man who and what He is.

Yes, I have asked Jesus to live in and through me, and he, though perhaps reluctantly, is doing so. But Larry, before I new God, I was able to understand sufficiently His Word and to believe in Him as my personal Savior. My son came to know God in the same manner that I did, because I read the scriptures to him daily when he was an infant up through about age 2 when I went back to work. Going back to work did not change the practice, it merely caused some rearranging of schedules to enable it. Even today, as he is entering manhood, we still read the scriptures, but now we do it together. I believe that he will do that for his own children when he gets married and has children!

Do you think the crowds that gathered to hear Jesus speak actually knew Jesus? I don't! They knew that he was a "good teacher", but they did not know he was the long awaited Messiah of the Jews. I believe they heard his words, and while many understood and accepted Jesus as a good teacher based upon his words, they did not accept Jesus as their personal savior until they knew more of Him and of his teachings. Many more believed because of the signs and wonders that he performed, but I don't think very many did so due to being "regenerated first" in order to be able to believe!

It was His words that changed people from unbelievers to believers then, JUST AS IT IS NOW!

I do not believe the Holy Spirit goes around looking for people to regenerate so that they can become believers. Nor do I believe the Holy Spirit runs around carrying the Book of Life finding those whose names are written therein from the foundation of the world, and then Regenerating those that He finds, either. After all, the Holy Spirit is God the Holy Spirit! If God is omniscient, then God at all times knows all there is to know! I don't believe he runs around with a clipboard and stopwatch, and when it is your time to be regenerated, He makes is happen....either!

I do believe that the Holy Spirit knows when one's mind has been persuaded by the truth to become a believer, and that the Holy Spirit indwells those who have been persuaded and causes them to know better what the words of God mean and teaches how to use those words in living a "reborn life". I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts one of sin when the sin is committed, and maybe before in some. And the Holy Spirit keeps the pressure on until we wake up and recognize our sins and confess them so that we can receive forgiveness for them. Sins unconfessed are sins that are not forgiven! Atoned for? Yes, Forgiven? NO!

Also, let me remind you that those whom Jesus addressed had been looking forward for a Messiah, and they were willing to hear anyone with the slightest promise of being that Messiah. Most Jews were UNBELIEVERS, and many remain so today! The fact that they were unbelievers, does not make them less Jewish! Those whom Jesus was addressing in the cited scripture were JEWS!

 

[Pastor Larry]

You were regenerated by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God. He is what enabled you to understand the Word. The unsaved can understand the words on the page, but they do not apply it to themselves, which is prima facie evidence that they do not really understand it's truth. That is what Jesus was speaking to the Jews about.

And Jesus was speaking to them as unbelievers, not as Jews per se. He was addressing their unbelief, not their Jewishness.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Pator Larry;
The sad thing is you haven't proven anything Larry. It's beyond your capability to do so

 

[Wes Outwest]

Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free!

Where do we get the truth? From the Word of God!

We read and "hear" the Word of God, and because the Holy Spirit is everywhere the Word of God is, He illuminates the truth to us. BUT, WE MAKE THE DECISION IN OUR OWN SPIRIT WHAT WE WILL DO WITH THE TRUTH WE HAVE RECEIVED.

WE DETERMINE IN OUR SPIRIT THAT WE WILL CHANGE, THAT WE REPENT FROM OUR SIN NATURE, AND THAT SIR, IS "REGENERATION". When we make that decision, the Heavenly hosts rejoice and the power of God comes to us through His Holy Spirit, and we, together with God, embark on our NEW LIFE.

 

[Pastor Larry]

he sad thing is you haven't proven anything Larry.

I don't need to prove anything. The word of God says it; we just need to believe it.

It's beyond your capability to do so

You think? What exactly do you mean by that?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Where do we get the truth? From the Word of God!

Yes, indeed.

We read and "hear" the Word of God, and because the Holy Spirit is everywhere the Word of God is, He illuminates the truth to us. BUT, WE MAKE THE DECISION IN OUR OWN SPIRIT WHAT WE WILL DO WITH THE TRUTH WE HAVE RECEIVED.

An unless your spirit is regenerated, you will always choose to reject that truth. That is the clear teaching of hte Bible. The natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit of God.

WE DETERMINE IN OUR SPIRIT THAT WE WILL CHANGE, THAT WE REPENT FROM OUR SIN NATURE, AND THAT SIR, IS "REGENERATION". When we make that decision, the Heavenly hosts rejoice and the power of God comes to us through His Holy Spirit, and we, together with God, embark on our NEW LIFE.

Incorrect. Regeneration is the impartation of spiritual life to the spiritually dead. After you are regenerated, then you exercise the faith and repentance that God gives you.

You are so determined to protect the autonomy of sinful rebellious sinners that you will say whatever you need to to support it. The Bible speaks clearly to these issues. Yet you consistently reject that teaching to maintain your position. What are you trying to do? What do you think you are accomplishing? What is at stake for you?

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Pastor Larry;

I don't need to prove anything. The word of God says it; we just need to believe it.

The word of God doesn't say what you claim . As far as believing the word of God I do but, you believe in Calvin and Augustine's distorted view of the Bible. Then claim that the Bible supports it. That's just not so except with in your own mind. Your doctrine is unsound yet you display a pride in it by claiming it's the one true doctrine. Your as wrong as your doctrine is. You claim that you don't have to prove it. That's only because you can't. You haven't so far.

I only want to help you, I really hate it when I meet someone as confused as you seem to be.
May God Bless you with Light;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

The word of God doesn't say what you claim

The word of God says that he chose us in him befeore the foundation of the world, that he chose us to salvation from the beginning. That is what I have said from day one. I came to that conclusion from reading the Scriptures. I have never read Calvin or Augustine.

But think of the absurdity of your post. You claim that I display pride by claiming my doctrine is the one true doctrine. You claim the very same thing. Are you not prideful by your own standard? Of course.

You want me to "see the light," but you won't talk much about Scripture. You have resorted to two posts in a row now that have nothing to do with Scripture and instead have attacked me.

The word of God proves that man is a sinner who will never turn to God on his own. The word of God proves that God chose individuals to salvation from before the beginning of the world. The word of God proves that God is working out that salvation in his chosen in time. I don't need to prove anything. We only need to accept the word of God.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Incorrect. Regeneration is the impartation of spiritual life to the spiritually dead. After you are regenerated, then you exercise the faith and repentance that God gives you.

You deny the words of Jesus when he describes the human make up. He says that it is spirit that gives life to flesh, so we already have living spirit within our flesh. That spirit however does not have eternal life until it submits to faith in Christ!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Please tell me you are kidding, Wes. The "Spirit" that gives life is obviously the Holy Spirit. He gives life in conjunction with the word of God.

Perhaps you were just kidding me with that attempt. I sure hope so.

 

[Ray Berrian]

After you are regenerated, then you exercise the faith and repentance that God gives you.

This statment above is a hypothetical theory of a human being; I wonder who thought up this one first?

In this scenario God could regenerate a sinner and he could refuse to have faith.

And since when did God start handing out 'repentance' to sinners.

Sorrow of heart and contrition comes from the sinner who because he wants to be saved, is willing to turn away from all future sins because of the ministering of the Holy Spirit on the life of the lost one.

Jesus knocks at the heart's door; He is not said to have knocked the door down. {Revelation 3;20] In this last passage Christ is knocking at the church's door asking for readmission. But, this is also true as to the sinners. He knocks.

Repentance and faith is the response to God's convicting call to His Divine grace which is everlasting life.

 

[Pastor Larry]

This statment above is a hypothetical theory of a human being; I wonder who thought up this one first? []

Your confusion stems from not knowing the Scriptures. As we have demonstrated many times, the Bible tells us that natural man is morally unable to respond ot God. The statement made is the theological conclusion based on teh information God revealed to us. God is the one who "thought it up first."

In this scenario God could regenerate a sinner and he could refuse to have faith. [Laugh]

Not sure why that is funny, but it certainly isn't true. No person, having truly seen the goodness of God's grace and awfulness of sin and hell will reject it. The only reason why everyone doesn't turn to God is becuase everyone doesn't see it clearly.

And since when did God start handing out 'repentance' to sinners. [Roll Eyes]

Since the beginning of time. Rom 2 tells us that the goodness of God leads us to repentance. Acts 11 tells us that God grants repentance. Rolling your eyes because you don't know the Scriptures does not reflect well on your study habits.

Repentance and faith is the response to God's convicting call to His Divine grace which is everlasting life.

At least you got this much right.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Please tell me you are kidding, Wes. The "Spirit" that gives life is obviously the Holy Spirit. He gives life in conjunction with the word of God.

Perhaps you were just kidding me with that attempt. I sure hope so.

You just don't accept anything about the human that God created do you?