JOHN 3:16 - FOR GOD SO LOVES THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE

[MennoSota]

God certainly displayed his love to the world. And those who believe have been chosen to believe before the foundation of the world. The elect will be eternally with their Father who, by his kind grace, adopted them and predestined them to life, not death.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I discipline my loved ones, but those that don't belong to me I don't mess with, but that doesn't work with God!

But not all mankind are biblically considered His children. It was Israel in the OT and the 'ekklesia' in the NT.

The Jebusites, Hittites, Hivvites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Philistiines were never called the children of God. This title is only afforded to the OT Jews. And conversely, the NT 'ekklesia'.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.[Romans 8:16-17]

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but:through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.[Romans 9:6-8]

The children of God, those whom He disciplines are those He loves.[Hebrews 12:6] So, if God loves everybody, He is disciplining everybody. Uhhhh....nope...sorry...

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Except He doesn't. Not in John 3:16 nor anywhere else.

Yes, I know. He died for all. What is your point?

If Jesus Christ "died for all", then the "all" can indeed be saved, if they were to "repent and believe the Gospel", that Jesus Christ is their Saviour. All are not saved, not because the death of Jesus is not extended to the "all", but, that the majority will not accept this and do not desire to know the Ways of the Lord God of the Bible. They willfully reject Jesus Christ as their Saviour. The fact that not all are saved, does not mean that Jesus' death is "limited" for the "elect" only. Sinful humans have a clear choice to either accept or reject Jesus.

Really? Why? Don't you limit the Atonement? Do you believe the Demon's sins are forgiven. The Devil's too? If not you limit the Atonement to just people.

If you read your Bible, you will clearly see in Hebrews, that Jesus Christ came to save ONLY the human race. See chapter 2, verses 14-16. Your argument is moot!

And does Christ apply the Atonement to everybody or only to those who believe?

The blood shed on the cross for Jesus Christ, is for the "whole human race", but only when a sinner were to repent and accept Jesus into their lives, that its cleansing power is applied to their sins, and they stand justified before God. We are not talking about the "effect" of the blood of Christ, but the extent of His Atonement, whether "everyone without exception", could, if they desired, be saved; or are there are certain class, the "non elect", who could never be saved.

I think your problem is that you have a flawed understanding of what Particular Redemption (the historic Baptist doctrine) is all about.

No it is not. "Reformed" theology has always taught that the death of Jesus Christ in its extent, was only intended for the "elect", and only these could ever be saved. That the "whosoever", is to be taken in a narrow, limited sense, rather than what Jesus Himself intended, "the human race". The salvation of sinners is based on their repentance of their sins, and their acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Saviour, and not on some decree by God before all time to save only some, which is not taught in the Bible!

 

[SovereignGrace]

No it is not. "Reformed" theology has always taught that the death of Jesus Christ in its extent, was only intended for the "elect", and only these could ever be saved. That the "whosoever", is to be taken in a narrow, limited sense, rather than what Jesus Himself intended, "the human race". The salvation of sinners is based on their repentance of their sins, and their acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Saviour, and not on some decree by God before all time to save only some, which is not taught in the Bible!

Why then, praytell, do some repent and accept the Christ, while others do not?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The atonement is only for the elect. The verses in John 3 do not say Jesus died for the entire world, but only for those who would believe. Your attempt to create a corporate atonement is incorrect, both for Israel as well as for humanity.

Read very carefully what Jesus says in John 3:16, "for God so loved the human race, that HE GAVE". This phrase "He gave", speaks of the death of Jesus Christ, and answers Romans 3:23-26, "for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say , of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus." God's love is "universal" and intended for the "whole human race", and to this "whole human race", "HE GAVE" Jesus Christ as the propitiation, for "ALL (whole human race) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", and as Romans 3 says, that only those "that have faith in Jesus" as their Redeemer, can indeed be saved. You are quote wrong in saying, "The verses in John 3 do not say Jesus died for the entire world, but only for those who would believe". It does say that Jesus died for the whole world, but only those who believe can and will be saved. A doctor might have the cure for your life-threatening illness, but unless you go to him for this treatment, you would die. If you did not go to get treated, and you were to die, does this mean that the doctors treatment "failed"? This is exactly like the Atonement of Jesus Christ, if the sinner does not accept what Jesus has done, and they end up in hell, there is no way that Jesus' death did not accomplish what it was meant to, and somehow failed as some wrongly assume.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Why then, praytell, do some repent and accept the Christ, while others do not?

So, how does the choice of the sinner to reject the Atonement of Jesus Christ and their Reconciliation to God, in any way diminish what Jesus did for the whole world on the cross? Jesus Himself clearly says, "you refuse to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40). He does not say that "you cannot come", as if some outside power were holding them back, but "YOU REFUSE", as Paul says in Acts 28:27, "their eyes they have closed". THEY HAVE CLOSED.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, how does the choice of the sinner to reject the Atonement of Jesus Christ and their Reconciliation to God, in any way diminish what Jesus did for the whole world on the cross? Jesus Himself clearly says, "you refuse to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40). He does not say that "you cannot come", as if some outside power were holding them back, but "YOU REFUSE", as Paul says in Acts 28:27, "their eyes they have closed". THEY HAVE CLOSED.

You have yourself centered upon YOURSELF. God can not get any glory from you guys because you're like an opera record stuck on 'me, me, me, me, me, me....'

Man don't have to choose to reject, that comes naturally to them.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You have yourself centered upon YOURSELF. God can not get any glory from you guys because you're like an opera record stuck on 'me, me, me, me, me, me....'

Man don't have to choose to reject, that comes naturally to them.

I say ME, not because as you put it, so that God does not get any glory, BUT, because I AM a sinner! WE sinners have to decide whether WE will accept what Jesus Christ has done for US. But, no human being can ever do so by and of themselves. As Jesus put it, "the Comforter...when He is come, He will reprove [convict] the world [human race] of sin...Of sin, because they believe not on me" (John 16:7-9). It is only when the Holy Spirit works in the heart of the sinner, and shows them their hopeless, lost, sinful state, and their need for a Saviour in Jesus Christ, that they will repent and turn to God. As salvation from start to finish is indeed the work of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, ALL GLORY goes ONLY to Them!

 

[SovereignGrace]

I say ME, not because as you put it, so that God does not get any glory, BUT, because I AM a sinner! WE sinners have to decide whether WE will accept what Jesus Christ has done for US. But, no human being can ever do so by and of themselves. As Jesus put it, "the Comforter...when He is come, He will reprove [convict] the world [human race] of sin...Of sin, because they believe not on me" (John 16:7-9). It is only when the Holy Spirit works in the heart of the sinner, and shows them their hopeless, lost, sinful state, and their need for a Saviour in Jesus Christ, that they will repent and turn to God. As salvation from start to finish is indeed the work of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, ALL GLORY goes ONLY to Them!

Here is what you are doing...

 

[utilyan]

1 john 2

2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and our sins only.


One of these verses is in the bible. The other is a false teaching.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I say ME, not because as you put it, so that God does not get any glory, BUT, because I AM a sinner! WE sinners have to decide whether WE will accept what Jesus Christ has done for US. But, no human being can ever do so by and of themselves. As Jesus put it, "the Comforter...when He is come, He will reprove [convict] the world [human race] of sin...Of sin, because they believe not on me" (John 16:7-9). It is only when the Holy Spirit works in the heart of the sinner, and shows them their hopeless, lost, sinful state, and their need for a Saviour in Jesus Christ, that they will repent and turn to God. As salvation from start to finish is indeed the work of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, ALL GLORY goes ONLY to Them!

"Don't worry God., I've got this."

 

[Iconoclast]

So, how does the choice of the sinner to reject the Atonement of Jesus Christ and their Reconciliation to God, in any way diminish what Jesus did for the whole world on the cross? Jesus Himself clearly says, "you refuse to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40). He does not say that "you cannot come", as if some outside power were holding them back, but "YOU REFUSE", as Paul says in Acts 28:27, "their eyes they have closed". THEY HAVE CLOSED.

Jesus did not provide a choice....he provided a redemption.
It was not potential but actual.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Jesus did not provide a choice....he provided a redemption.
It was not potential but actual.

that is what you say. So what I have quoted from the Bible from John and Acts, is wrong? Read again what the Apostle Paul says why people will go to hell:

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

I cannot understand the hate that the co-called "reformers" and "Calvinists" have for the world? It is very clear in their warped arguments that God has "selected" just a few to be saved, and damned the others!!! You you guys thing that you are "better" than the rest? that somehow you "deserve" to be saved and the non-elect damned to hell?

The Bible very clearly says that people are given a clear choice, like Joshua says "choose this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:14-15), words that are completely pointless if they could not! What did Elijah mean when he said, "“How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” (1 Kings 18:21)? Are you saying that he was not giving the people a real choice between the Real God of the Bible, and the false gods of the world? Jesus Himself says, "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad." (Matthew 12:30). What did God mean when He speaks through Moses, "Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster." (Deuteronomy 30:15)?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

"Don't worry God., I've got this."

typical Calvinist response when they know they are in the wrong!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

1 john 2

2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and our sins only.


One of these verses is in the bible. The other is a false teaching.

There are certain "Christians" who are content in twisting the Word of God!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Here is what you are doing...

rather childish response!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Jesus did not provide a choice....he provided a redemption.
It was not potential but actual.

I might add here, Revelation 22:17;

"The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let anyone who hears this say, "Come." Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life."

and, Acts 2:21;

"And it shall come to pass that everyone whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved." (Greek text)

Clearly people have a choice here, to "drink freely from the water of life", and "call upon the Name of the Lord"

God does not force anyone to do what they do not want to. This is "free will", which is taught in the Bible, as human beings are "responsible" for their actions. Not as some have corrupted this into denying that man is "free to choose"!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” (3:16-17)

Thank you for your post, which I have read through in its entirety.
May I ask, are you under the impression that there are some on this board who believe that there are some who will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and yet will nonetheless perish? And has the world, in the sense of 'the whole human race,' actually been saved through Christ?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Thank you for your post, which I have read through in its entirety.
May I ask, are you under the impression that there are some on this board who believe that there are some who will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and yet will nonetheless perish? And has the world, in the sense of 'the whole human race,' actually been saved through Christ?

Whether or not anyone else believes a saved person can lose their salvation, I cannot answer, as I do not know what everyone believes here. No doubt those who do not hold to "once saved always saved", will believe this. My post is not dealing with the "eternal security" of believers. As to you other question. "Universal Atonement" does not mean "Universal Salvation", that all will be saved. Nor does it mean that "all have been saved". I believe that the death of Jesus Christ provides the Atonement for the repentant sinner, who comes to Jesus in faith for his salvation through His finished work on the cross. How can the "whole human race" be saved, when we know that the greater majority will perish and end up in hell? Further, no person can ever be saved without their acknowledgement of their sins, their need to repent of their sinful life, and accept what Jesus Christ has done on the cross for them.