John 3:16, The Meaning of "kosmos"

[37818]

so, sinners are mere robots that do not have to think for themselves, but carry out what God "makes" them do

People choose to hear what they want to hear. God knowing this does not cause it. God provides the truth, and by it sanctifies a man to hear, but some will not hear anyway, Acts of the Apostles 7:51; Hebrews 10:29.

 

[JD731]

First, I wasn’t questioning your view, I just wanted to remind you of a policy that we all follow.

Second, John 3:16 is not violated by examining.

I am far too old to “get into the weeds” very far. However, the fact is that only those who believe are redeemed. The “whosoever” is just as accurately stated as “those who” or “all who.”

Do you not agree?


Perhaps the single great divide is not the rendering of John but rather the view of “freedom of the will.”

Can a person, of their own intellectual conjuring, without the impress and benefits of both the Word and work of the Holy Spirit, be saved.

The typical Baptist will admit that, “No, such cannot.”

Then either one must accept some form of prevenient grace - not ever found or mentioned in the Scriptures, or the person is drawn toward some form of the reformed view.

I am not sure why a mystery element must be applied to simple and clear statements that God has not intended to be mysterious. He makes simple statements of what he has done and what he will do, and sometimes he even tells us why he did it. Such is the case in Jn 3. He sent his son because he loved the world, he said. How simple is that? He said he loved it a lot. He sent the best thing he had to save it. Some of you try to tell others of us that he did not mean that. He then says he will save anyone/everyone who believes in him. This is consistent throughout all the New Testament. Then you throw something into the mix that is neither in the text and most people have never even heard of; prevenient grace. What in the world is that? It is not something that God wants us to know anything about because he did not say anything about it. It muddies the water. It is intended to make people look scholarly, but what it does is shows a man is justifying his unbelief of simple words and making the texts of scriptures conform to his own presuppositions and notions. It is not faith in what is said. Jn 3 is not a parable.

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

sanctifies a man to hear,

Do you mean that God "causes" some to hear and accept the Gospel Message, and the others are "passed by"?

 

[37818]

Do you mean that God "causes" some to hear and accept the Gospel Message, and the others are "passed by"?

No. I said what I meant. God provides the truth, by God's truth He sanctifes a man to hear. If a man chooses to hear then by that hearing God has given the man a change of mind, 2 Timothy 2:25. If the man refuses to hear, the man does not change his mind, Acts of the Apostles 7:51, Hebrews 10:29.

 

[Van]

God’s relationship for the believer - Love is expressing what is best toward the other person.

A verse that goes along with this principle is, “All things work for ....”

God’s relationship for the unbeliever is that of a lack of reconciliation. Because the unbeliever is in rebellion, then there is no “love.”

This passage that presents this principle is,

29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?30For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Fiction "For God loved the world (mankind) in this way...

 

[Van]

God's love is offered but not uncondtionally to sinners. John 3:16, "God so loved the world, . . . . ουτω γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον . . . ." " . . . . in-order-that everyone who believes in him might not perish, but may have everlasting life." -- MLV

God demonstrated His love toward us in that while we were still sinners, He died for us. His love for all mankind is demonstrated by Him laying down His life as a ransom for all. However, only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are chosen, thus a conditional individual election for salvation.

 

[37818]

Do you mean that God "causes" some to hear and accept the Gospel Message, and the others are "passed by"?

You are not hearing. God's truth sacnctifes, John 17:17. God's natural revelation being heard gives all men some kind of faith, Romans 10:17-18, so there is no excuse for any refusing to hear the gospel. Some men refuse to hear the truth of the gospel, Hebrews 10:29.

 

[37818]

God demonstrated His love toward us in that while we were still sinners, He died for us. His love for all mankind is demonstrated by Him laying down His life as a ransom for all. However, only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are chosen, thus a conditional individual election for salvation.

1 Peter 1:2.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

 

[The Archangel]

I know that God does the saving, but my point is that He does use imperfect human translations to do this,and not only our "standard" versions like the KJV, etc

It would have to depend on the translation. The New World Translation (NWT) is not just an imperfect translation in that it never attempts to faithfully translate the original languages. The prevailing idea in the NWT is that Jesus is god-like, but certainly not God. So, the NWT would be in a vastly different category than the KJV, NASB, NLT, ESV, etc. So it is far less likely the NWT would be a tool of conversion.

The Archangel

 

[37818]

. . . the NWT would be in a vastly different category than the KJV, NASB, NLT, ESV, etc.

Well this is a side issue. There is the issue of translation, which sets the NWT against NASB, NLT, ESV, etc. But as for the chosen Greek text(s) the KJV is set against the NWT, NASB, NLT, ESV, etc. A baptist pastor went from the NASB back to the KJV over this textual issue. John 1:18 for example. You can check for other references and see for yourselves.

 

[The Archangel]

Well this is a side issue. There is the issue of translation, which sets the NWT against NASB, NLT, ESV, etc. But as for the chosen ;Greek text(s) the KJV is set against the NWT, NASB, NLT, ESV, etc. A baptist pastor went from the NASB back to the KJV over this textual issue. John 1:18 for example. You can check for others references and see for yourselves.

I know of the differences in the families of manuscripts. However, it is apples and oranges. The different textual families do not deny the tenants of the faith while the NWT does.

The Archangel

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

It would have to depend on the translation. The New World Translation (NWT) is not just an imperfect translation in that it never attempts to faithfully translate the original languages. The prevailing idea in the NWT is that Jesus is god-like, but certainly not God. So, the NWT would be in a vastly different category than the KJV, NASB, NLT, ESV, etc. So it is far less likely the NWT would be a tool of conversion.

The Archangel

I think that you are missing what I am saying. I am NOT a supporter of the NWT in any way, nor will I ever recommend it. What I am saying is that God, as Great as He is, is not limited to the "translation" to reach people with the Gospel with their salvation. Even the corrupt NWT has John 3:3, 16; Mark 1:15, and other passages that speak of the need for salvation. And there is no doubt that God will use this version, if someone is truly seeking the truth about Him, to reach them.

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

You are not hearing. God's truth sacnctifes, John 17:17. God's natural revelation being heard gives all men some kind of faith, Romans 10:17-18, so there is no excuse for any refusing to hear the gospel. Some men refuse to hear the truth of the gospel, Hebrews 10:29.

I don't think that John 17:17 is addressed for the whole human race, but here only for Jesus' Disciples. In what way does the Gospel message "sanctify" those who hear it? I know that the majority reject the Gospel, but this is not what the OP is about

 

[The Archangel]

I think that you are missing what I am saying. I am NOT a supporter of the NWT in any way, nor will I ever recommend it. What I am saying is that God, as Great as He is, is not limited to the "translation" to reach people with the Gospel with their salvation. Even the corrupt NWT has John 3:3, 16; Mark 1:15, and other passages that speak of the need for salvation. And there is no doubt that God will use this version, if someone is truly seeking the truth about Him, to reach them.

Maybe?.... Maybe some passages, but it would depend on which passage was being read. If it's John 1:1, then no.

The Archangel

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

Maybe?.... Maybe some passages, but it would depend on which passage was being read. If it's John 1:1, then no.

The Archangel

Well, of all the Gospel Messages that I have heard in almost 40 years, I have never heard that a lost, hell-bound sinner was required to understand that John 1:1, for example should read, "and the Word was God"!,or that the God of the Holy Bible is Triune? Your reasoning is moot!

 

[The Archangel]

Well, of all the Gospel Messages that I have heard in almost 40 years, I have never heard that a lost, hell-bound sinner was required to understand that John 1:1, for example should read, "and the Word was God"!,or that the God of the Holy Bible is Triune? Your reasoning is moot!

The reasoning is not moot. The NWT in John 1:1 reads, "the word was a god" (emphasis mine). If that person is reading John 1:1 thinking Jesus--the Word--is a god and not the one, true, and living God--that would not be the God of the Bible and no real conversion would have happened.

And, I might add, we were not discussing "Gospel Messages;" we were discussing picking up a particular translation and reading it. These are two different things.

The Archangel

 

[37818]

I know of the differences in the families of manuscripts. However, it is apples and oranges. The different textual families do not deny the tenants of the faith while the NWT does.

The Archangel

What is really the words of God is a tenant of the faith which now Bible believing Christians are being taught side with the non-believers on the text. It is an issue.

 

[The Archangel]

What is really the words of God is a tenant of the faith which now Bible believing Christians are being taught side with the non-believers on the text. It is an issue.

To clarify: The different textual traditions are an issue? Are you considering that one of the traditions does not faithfully represent the Word of God?

The Archangel

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

The reasoning is not moot. The NWT in John 1:1 reads, "the word was a god" (emphasis mine). If that person is reading John 1:1 thinking Jesus--the Word--is a god and not the one, true, and living God--that would not be the God of the Bible and no real conversion would have happened.

And, I might add, we were not discussing "Gospel Messages;" we were discussing picking up a particular translation and reading it. These are two different things.

The Archangel

Is it not possible that the Lord Who is Almighty, can take the Jehovahs Witness who is reading the NWT to verses like Isaiah 9.6, where Jesus is called "Mighty God"? John 1.1 is not the only text that teaches Jesus is God. I have heard the testimony of a former JW who said that he was saved by reading about Jesus in Hebrews chapter 1, in the NWT!

 

[Sai]

Comes from the same word where we get our English word cosmetics. Because when a woman gets up in the mornings she uses cosmetics to create order out of chaos.

The meaning is that Satan has an organized system in place in the fallen world, the kosmos.