John 3:16

[Aaron]

Granted Christ is incorruptible. Yet that does not explain how He could have been tempted as we are.
MB

Are you talking about sexual lusts? (Usually when people say that unless one has a sin nature he can't be tempted they're speaking of sexual lusts.)

 

[TCassidy]

I couldn't care less about your historical theology.

It is not MY Historical Theology. "Theology" means "The Study of God." It is God's History of His Supernatural Revelation to His creation, mankind.

None of it stands on scripture any way

It is all rooted in the bible as the supreme and final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

The Bible is the only truth about theology.

Exactly.

There is no reason to consider the mistakes of others such as your self.

And what mistakes do you believe are committed by Historical Theology? And, as you have never studied Historical Theology how do you know if it is right or wrong?

 

[MB]

It is not MY Historical Theology. "Theology" means "The Study of God." It is God's History of His Supernatural Revelation to His creation, mankind.

Not true. Even you said Augustine was out in left feild

It is all rooted in the bible as the supreme and final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

Exactly.

And what mistakes do you believe are committed by Historical Theology? And, as you have never studied Historical Theology how do you know if it is right or wrong?

What makes you think so? Is it because I do not talk about them. I'm not excited about a bunch of men who claim to know it all. The Holy Spirit is my teacher. Who is yours
MB

 

[TCassidy]

Not true.

Very true. Historical Theology is the historical record of God's Self-revelation to mankind.

Even you said Augustine was out in left feild

Yes, I know what I said. And he was. What has that to do with the point. I cited Augustine to show that Particular Redemption did not originate with Calvin. What about that is too hard to understand?

What makes you think so?

What makes me think what?

Is it because I do not talk about them.

Don't talk about whom?

I'm not excited about a bunch of men who claim to know it all.

Who claims to know it all?

The Holy Spirit is my teacher.

The Holy Spirit is our "Guide into All Truth" for every born again Child of God. Are you suggesting He taught you more than He taught others?

Who is yours

Be careful. Be very careful.

 

[Rippon]

There is no translation that reads such that I know of.

The ISV translates the latter portion of the verse as :"...who is the Savior of all people, that is, of those who believe."

I can accept particularly as a valid translation of μαλιστα, but "that is" seems a stretch.

George W.Knight 111 in NIGTC, The Pastoral Epistles 203,204 argues that malista means "that is".

Dr. Knight is a sound N.T. scholar, theologian, preacher and more! He's an ordained minister of the OPC.

 

[Rippon]

He [Augustine]was off in left field most of the time. I cited him as proof of the ignorance of your statement that Particular Redemption "comes from Calvinism."

He had his share of errors and the Roman Catholic Church embraces them and a lot more items that Augustine never held.

I am not the only Protestant that certainly repudiates your statement that he "was off in left field most of the time."

He was on the mark, for the most part --70%-75% of the time.

I will list a number of Baptists who appreciate him and his ministry:
Piper, Dever, Mohler, George, Schreiner, Carson, Haykin, Bridges (dec.), Henry (dec)

Now some non-Baptists who value his work and ministry:
Sproul, Beeke, Duncan, Bray, Trueman, Horton, Ferguson, Helm, Pipa, Warfield (dec.), Boice (dec.).

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

'For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy' (Romans 10:15-16).

This text shows that our salvation depends not on man, but on God, Who is rich in mercy and desires the salvation of the entire human race!

"Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of the patriarchs, since God’s gracious gifts and calling are not to be regretted. As you once disobeyed God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, resulting in mercy to you, so that they also now may receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all" (Romans 11:28-32)

In chapters 9-11 Paul is addressing the issue of the Jews, who were the original "people of God", and the Gentiles, to whom, God in His infinite Mercy, opened up the way for them to be saved. The whole world is made up of two "types", the Jews and the Gentiles. If you are not the one, then you are the other. The Bible in many places teaches the widness of God's love for all of mankind, but, not only so, as the Apostle Paul says: "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4). Read verses 1 and 2 and you will see who these ALL are. There is no way that this can be limited to only the "elect". In the previous chapter we find another great verse, "Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" (15). Again, apart from personal "theology" on one would ever restrict the use of "world" to the "elect" only, as the entire world are sinners and not just the elect!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

To quote an old friend of mine, "Dead is dead."

As God opens their ears. Without God's Grace their metaphorical ears remain dead, hearing nothing.

Exactly.

Almost universally taught Particular Redemption.

Your last remark that the early Church "Almost universally taught Particular Redemption", is not correct. Check out this detailed study on this very subject, where the opposite is true!

http://evangelicalarminians.org/wp-...the-Atonement-in-the-Early-Church-Fathers.pdf

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This text shows that our salvation depends not on man, but on God, Who is rich in mercy and desires the salvation of the entire human race!

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:32), but He will not acquit the unrighteous (Exodus 34:7). So He has predestined a vast crowd (Revelation 7:9) to salvation. These He has given to the Son (John 6:37a), who has redeemed them at measureless cost, taking their sins upon Himself and crediting His perfect righteousness to them (1 Corinthians 5:21). Not one of those for whom He died will perish (John 6:39). 'Salvation belongs to our God and to the Lamb' (Revelation 7:10). If God desired the salvation of the whole human race more than He desired righteousness and justice, the whole human race would be saved (Psalm 135:6 etc.).

"Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of the patriarchs, since God’s gracious gifts and calling are not to be regretted. As you once disobeyed God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, resulting in mercy to you, so that they also now may receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all" (Romans 11:28-32)

Yet God does not have mercy on all, does He? 'All' in the context of Romans 9-11 and elsewhere, means all manner of people, specifically Jew and Gentile, but other types also. Read Galatians 3:28 and note the use of 'all' there.

In chapters 9-11 Paul is addressing the issue of the Jews, who were the original "people of God", and the Gentiles, to whom, God in His infinite Mercy, opened up the way for them to be saved. The whole world is made up of two "types", the Jews and the Gentiles. If you are not the one, then you are the other. The Bible in many places teaches the widness of God's love for all of mankind, but, not only so, as the Apostle Paul says: "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4). Read verses 1 and 2 and you will see who these ALL are. There is no way that this can be limited to only the "elect". In the previous chapter we find another great verse, "Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" (15). Again, apart from personal "theology" on one would ever restrict the use of "world" to the "elect" only, as the entire world are sinners and not just the elect!

See my comments above. God would have all manner of people saved, including 'kings and all who are in authority.' But the reason we pray for such people is 'that we may lead peaceable lives in all godliness and reverence.' But if God desired every single person to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, then they would-- 'For who has resisted His will?' (Romans 9:19).

Please look at the Scripture references that I have given before replying.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:32), but He will not acquit the unrighteous (Exodus 34:7). So He has predestined a vast crowd (Revelation 7:9) to salvation. These He has given to the Son (John 6:37a), who has redeemed them at measureless cost, taking their sins upon Himself and crediting His perfect righteousness to them (1 Corinthians 5:21). Not one of those for whom He died will perish (John 6:39). 'Salvation belongs to our God and to the Lamb' (Revelation 7:10). If God desired the salvation of the whole human race more than He desired righteousness and justice, the whole human race would be saved (Psalm 135:6 etc.).

Yet God does not have mercy on all, does He? 'All' in the context of Romans 9-11 and elsewhere, means all manner of people, specifically Jew and Gentile, but other types also. Read Galatians 3:28 and note the use of 'all' there.

See my comments above. God would have all manner of people saved, including 'kings and all who are in authority.' But the reason we pray for such people is 'that we may lead peaceable lives in all godliness and reverence.' But if God desired every single person to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, then they would-- 'For who has resisted His will?' (Romans 9:19).

Please look at the Scripture references that I have given before replying.

I think that you have missed one of the most important per-conditions to any sinner being saved, which are the first words spoken by Jesus, according to Mark, "repent and believe the Gospel". You have quoted from one of my favorite OT passages, Ezekiel 18, but in a limited was so as to rob it of its real meaning. Here is the context:

“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” (verses 25-32)

This passage alone very clearly speaks to any honest mind, that God's Mercy in saving sinners is without any doubt, for the entire human race! I cannot understand how anyone can honestly think that God only has a few in mind when He spoke these words from the heart! Theology aside, any "limitation" placed on the Atoning work of Jesus Christ, is, in my opinion, one of the biggest heresies that certain people of the Church have dared to put forward! They have changed the force of the entire Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is for the salvation of each and every sinner, into a farce of "elitism" whereby only a "few" are deemed "worthy" of this eternal life! True, ALL will not be saved, but this is NOT because of any deficiency in the Atonement of Jesus Christ, but the blatant refusal of hardened sinners (as we were once) to repent and believe in this Wonderful Gospel Message! As Jesus Himself tells the rebellious Jews of His day, "you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40), not as some have twisted its plain meaning, to, "could not will", which is NOT what the Greek says here! Note Jesus' words, "not willing", showing that ALL have "free will", to "will" (accept), or "not will" (reject).. The fact that Jesus tells these Jews this (see context), is further evidence that He would have died also for them!

 

[agedman]

B

Your last remark that the early Church "Almost universally taught Particular Redemption", is not correct. Check out this detailed study on this very subject, where the opposite is true!

http://evangelicalarminians.org/wp-...the-Atonement-in-the-Early-Church-Fathers.pdf

In a quick read through the link, I'm not certain that TCassidy or I would disagree with it in any major way.

We both hold that the blood was shed for all.

However, none of the limited atonement controversy effects the doctrines of grace in other areas such as predestination, election, depravity, preservation ...

Some think that if they can find a weakness in a single area, the rest will collapse as if each supports the other.

Such is not the case. Each statement of the doctrines of grace are stand alone and can be discussed and validated without regard to the others.

 

[TCassidy]

Check out this detailed study

Thank you for posting that article which proves my point.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Thank you for posting that article which proves my point.

what point is that?

 

[MB]

So you use no other "helps?"

The Holy Spirit teaches me and every other believer if they will only let Him teach. No one needs a bunch of self proclaimed experts. Which would you rather have a perfect teacher or some non perfect man teach you?
MB

 

[TCassidy]

what point is that?

That the ECFs believed exactly as I do, the universal death of Christ.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

That the ECFs believed exactly as I do, the universal death of Christ.

but not with your understanding of it!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The Holy Spirit teaches me and every other believer if they will only let Him teach. No one needs a bunch of self proclaimed experts. Which would you rather have a perfect teacher or some non perfect man teach you?
MB

you cannot be serious? Surely you must believe that we Christians can learn from each other? I know there are some here who think they have all of the truth! But, there are things that the Holy Spirit will reveal to you, and not to me, etc, etc, which is why I believe good commentaries, study Bibles, Hebrew and Greek helps, etc, are very important, for a deeper understanding of the Bible, which is lost in many places in the English language.

 

[TCassidy]

but not with your understanding of it!

And how does my understanding differ from theirs?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

And how does my understanding differ from theirs?

do you believe that the Death of Jesus Christ was EQUAL for the entire human race, and not the reformed position of "sufficient" for the human race, but "efficient" only for the elect? That Jesus died to offer salvation through His blood EQUALLY for every human being? This is what the ECF till Augustine taught in the main.

 

[TCassidy]

do you believe that the Death of Jesus Christ was EQUAL for the entire human race,

I am not sure what you mean by "equal." But I know that Christ's Sacrifice of Himself on the cross benefits all people of all times.

and not the reformed position of "sufficient" for the human race, but "efficient" only for the elect?

Okay. If you want to know what a "reformed" person believes you will have to ask one. As I have stated over and over again on this forum, I am not "Reformed." I am an Historic, Particular Baptist. Nothing "Reformed" about me or what I believe.

I believe the Atonement (not the Death - different subject) is sufficient for all persons at all times. But it is efficient ONLY for Believers.

If you disagree with that, do you believe the Atonement is efficient for unbelievers, and there will, therefore, be unbelievers in Heaven?

That Jesus died to offer salvation through His blood EQUALLY for every human being?

Yes, the Gospel Call is universal.

This is what the ECF till Augustine taught in the main.

Exactly. Thanks again for making my point. The EFCs believe, for the most part, what I believe and what Particular Baptists have believed since their beginnings.