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John 3:5 does not require (or even speak about) Baptism for Salvation (The Other Denom, Edition)

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Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MarysSon said:
Yes, it absolutely is.
Explain to me what He meant in John 3:5 - if not Baptism.
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I have already explained this in the article I presented. Is Baptism Part of Salvation?

John 3:5 is clearly talking about your physical birth. Verse four makes this clear. Nicodemus wants to know if we are supposed to go back to the womb. Jesus explains no, both water (womb) and spirit. This has nothing to do with baptism in any stretch of the imagination.
 
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MarysSon

Active Member
davidtaylorjr said:
I have already explained this in the article I presented. Is Baptism Part of Salvation?

John 3:5 is clearly talking about your physical birth. Verse four makes this clear. Nicodemus wants to know if we are supposed to go back to the womb. Jesus explains no, both water (womb) and spirit. This has nothing to do with baptism in any stretch of the imagination.
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WRONG.

Nicodemus was asking how to be born AGAIN. He was thinking in human terms - but Jesus explained to him how to be born again in HIM:
John 3:1-7
Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.

He came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you are doing unless God is with him.”

Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born* from above.”

Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”

Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’

NOT that difficult to parse . . .
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MarysSon said:
WRONG.

Nicodemus was asking how to be born AGAIN. He was thinking in human terms - but Jesus explained to him how to be born again in HIM:
John 3:1-7
Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.

He came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you are doing unless God is with him.”

Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born* from above.”

Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”

Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’

NOT that difficult to parse . . .
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Apparently it is difficult for you because the very next verse, which you quoted, SUPPORTS my position. It then goes from water and spirit to flesh and spirit because water, just like Nicodemus said, is referring to the womb. The flesh. The earthly birth. NOT Baptism.
 
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MarysSon

Active Member
davidtaylorjr said:
Apparently it is difficult for you because the very next verse, which you quoted, SUPPORTS my position. It then goes from water and spirit to flesh and spirit because water, just like Nicodemus said, is referring to the womb. The flesh. The earthly birth. NOT Baptism.
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That's actually pretty silly.,

In laymen's English, YOU version of the conversation went something like this:

Jesus answered and said to him, “I'm telling you right now, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”

Nicodemus said to him, “How can an old guy be born again? H can't go back to his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”

Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of his mother's womb.

Nicodemus would have laughed and said - "Ummmm, EVERYBODY is born from their mother's womb, Einstein" - and he would have giggled all the way back to the Temple.

Jesus was talking about being BORN AGAIN in HIM at BAPTISM.
Where does Jesus go right after Nicodemus leaves??
He and the Apostles go a'Baptizin at the river.

John 3 is literally drenched in Baptismal Water . . .
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MarysSon said:
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of his mother's womb.
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This is just a stupid comment because it leaves out the SECOND HALF OF THE VERSE.

He acknowledges our first birth, water, and then speaks of born again which is by spirit.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MarysSon said:
The Early Church UNANIMOUSLY read John 3:5 as being about Baptism.
Were they all "wrong" until the 16th century??
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This is an outright lie. St. Chrysostom did not hold this view:
The earthly birth which is according to the flesh, is of the dust, and therefore heaven is walled against it, for what hath earth in common with heaven? But that other, which is of the Spirit, easily unfolds to us the arches5 above.

John Chrysostom, “Homilies of St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, on the Gospel of St. John,” in Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of St. John and Epistle to the Hebrews, ed. Philip Schaff, trans. G. T. Stupart, vol. 14, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series (New York: Christian Literature Company, 1889), 87.
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St. Ambrose did not hold this view:

63. Nicodemus enquires about regeneration, and the Lord replies: “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again by water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” And that He might show that there is one birth according to the flesh, and another according to the Spirit, He added: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, because it is born of the flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit, because the Spirit is God.”4 Follow out the whole course of the passage, and you will find that God has shut out your impiety by the fulness of His statement: “Marvel not,” says He, “that I said, Ye must be born again. The Spirit breatheth where He listeth, and thou hearest His voice, but knowest not whence He cometh or whither He goeth, so is every one who is born of the Spirit.”

Ambrose of Milan, “Three Books of St. Ambrose on the Holy Spirit,” in St. Ambrose: Select Works and Letters, ed. Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, trans. H. de Romestin, E. de Romestin, and H. T. F. Duckworth, vol. 10, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Second Series (New York: Christian Literature Company, 1896), 144.
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I could go on, but last I checked, both of them were WELL BEFORE the 16th century.
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
MarysSon said:
That's actually pretty silly.,

In laymen's English, YOU version of the conversation went something like this:

Jesus answered and said to him, “I'm telling you right now, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”

Nicodemus said to him, “How can an old guy be born again? H can't go back to his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”

Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of his mother's womb.

Nicodemus would have laughed and said - "Ummmm, EVERYBODY is born from their mother's womb, Einstein" - and he would have giggled all the way back to the Temple.

Jesus was talking about being BORN AGAIN in HIM at BAPTISM.
Where does Jesus go right after Nicodemus leaves??
He and the Apostles go a'Baptizin at the river.

John 3 is literally drenched in Baptismal Water . . .
Click to expand...
A person is not born again via water baptism. Do you believe that water baptism saves? If so, you cannot be a Baptist.
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
MarysSon said:
The Early Church UNANIMOUSLY read John 3:5 as being about Baptism.
Were they all "wrong" until the 16th century??
Click to expand...

You cannot legitimately make that universal statement. You might be able to say that the State sanctioned and controlled Roman Church taught that John 3:5 was about water baptism, but it is fallacious to say the early church and Apostles taught what you believe.
 
Adonia

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
For something that is not required, it sure is mentioned quite a bit in the Holy Writ.

Now, let us go to St. John Chrysostom: "But let us now return to the subject. First defilements of the body are washed out, and then God heals various infirmities by means of water. For because God would bring us nearer to the grace of baptism, he not only cleanses defilements but heals diseases. For those figures which come nearest to the reality, in baptism, the Passion, and others are seen more clearly than the older ones. For it is the same with those who form a king's bodyguard : they are more splendidly apparelled than those at the other end of his equipage. And the angel came down and troubled the water, and imbued it with healing power; so that the Jews might learn that the Lord of Angels had far more power to heal all the diseases of the soul. But just as here it was not simply the natural property of the water that healed, (otherwise it would have always have done so) but it happened through the work of the Angel : so it is not simply water that works on us, but after the water has received the grace of the Spirit, then it looses us from all sin." St. John Chrysostom (From the 35th/36th Sermon on St. John's Gospel)

So, I will ask the question: Baptism is still useless?
 
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Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Adonia said:
Now, let us go to St. John Chrysostom: "But let us now return to the subject. First defilements of the body are washed out, and then God heals various infirmities by means of water. For because God would bring us nearer to the grace of baptism, he not only cleanses defilements but heals diseases. For those figures which come nearest to the reality, in baptism, the Passion, and others are seen more clearly than the older ones. For it is the same with those who form a king's bodyguard : they are more splendidly apparelled than those at the other end of his equipage. And the angel came down and troubled the water, and imbued it with healing power; so that the Jews might learn that the Lord of Angels had far more power to heal all the diseases of the soul. But just as here it was not simply the natural property of the water that healed, (otherwise it would have always have done so) but it happened through the work of the Angel : so it is not simply water that works on us, but after the water has received the grace of the Spirit, then it looses us from all sin." St. John Chrysostom (From the 35th/36th Sermon on St. John's Gospel)
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No offense, but Chrysostom isn't Scripture so I'm not even sure why he is being brought up.
 
M

MarysSon

Active Member
Particular said:
You cannot legitimately make that universal statement. You might be able to say that the State sanctioned and controlled Roman Church taught that John 3:5 was about water baptism, but it is fallacious to say the early church and Apostles taught what you believe.
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Every Early Church Father who wrote on the subject UNANIMOUSLY believed that John 3:5 was about Baptism.
Show me ONE Early Church writing to the contrary . . .
 
M

MarysSon

Active Member
Particular said:
A person is not born again via water baptism. Do you believe that water baptism saves? If so, you cannot be a Baptist.
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The Bible states explicitly that Baptism saves us:

1 Pet. 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
MarysSon said:
The Bible states explicitly that Baptism saves us:

1 Pet. 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
This is not talking about water baptism. Peter is talking about the Baptism with the Spirit
 
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