John 3

[Run2Win]

[QUOTE=DHK]

That is your interpretation of the passage. I will endure to the end. I will not falter. I will not fail. I will never disown my Savior. There is no conjecture here. There is no "IF" here. Why? God has changed my life. The Holy Spirit dwells within me and continues to change my life; contnues to work in me making me every day more like Him, ever more conforming me to the image of Christ. Why should I go back and do the things that I did before I was saved? I don't even think of it.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are saved by grace through faith...created unto good works.
There is no if. There are no works involved.
Saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God not of works
It can't be any clearer.

Peter felt the same way brother. I hope we all remain steadfast. I admire your zeal on the matter. Peter did exactly what he said he wouldn't do - remember?

Matthew 26:35 Peter said unto him , Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee.Likewise also said all the disciples.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I don't think that we are any better than Peter or the Corinthians.

So are you saying that the passage written to the church in Thyatira was written in vain? Why even write it to them if they could not quit their works. Notice that the Lord tells THEM to hold fast that which they have. HE'S not holding fast anything there. If he were, we would have nothing to worry about. but when its in our hands we need to be careful and diligent to carryout what the Lord has commanded.

If we have the attitude that we will never fail, there is not a reason to read passages that exhort us to remain faihful, run races, fight fights, earnestly contend, etc.. You don't believe that you are a robot do you? Why did the Lord tell the church of Thyatira to keep his works unto the end if they had no choice. Entrance into the physical kingdom of Christ over the Earth is based on our faithfulness to the works that the Lord has commanded to do. The scripture is very plain and easy to read in this passage. This is not heaven- Christ will not have to rule anyone in heaven with a rod of iron or make enemies his footstool. I dont think there will be any enemies in heaven do you. EVERLASTING LIFE IS A GIFT. RULING WITH CHRIST IS A REWARD. Romans 8:16-17 says we are children, therefore heirs, but we are joint heirs with him if we suffer with him.

You do believe that we are called to suffer don't you?

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.

 

[Amy.G]

Run2win:

Peter felt the same way brother. I hope we all remain steadfast. I admire your zeal on the matter. Peter did exactly what he said he wouldn't do - remember?

Peter did not deny the Lord in the sense that you are speaking. He denied knowing Him in order to save his own hide, out of fear. But he was devastated at what he had done and cried bitter tears.

You do believe that we are called to suffer don't you?

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.

Paul was speaking to the early church who suffered great persecution.

How much have you or I suffered for Christ? Someone laughed at us? Got mad at our preaching? That's not suffering. We are blessed to live in a country where we don't have to suffer to serve and worship God.

When people say that "we" suffer for Christ it diminishes the real suffering that Christians have endured throughout the age of the church.
The apostles suffered torture, imprisonment and death for Christ, as did the early church, the poor souls that burned at the stake to light the city for Nero, the Christians that had to live in the catacombs with the corpses and stench of death to escape persecution and torture and death, the men who were burned at the stake for daring to translate the Bible into another language and put it in the hands of the common man, the marters who have given their lives to spread the gospel in hostile countries, and on and on and......

Suffer? We know nothing about that.

 

[Run2Win]

Run2win:

Peter did not deny the Lord in the sense that you are speaking. He denied knowing Him in order to save his own hide, out of fear. But he was devastated at what he had done and cried bitter tears

.

Amy, I hope we are never put in that position. So are you saying that we cannot deny him now?If we can then how?

Paul was speaking to the early church who suffered great persecution.

How much have you or I suffered for Christ? Someone laughed at us? Got mad at our preaching? That's not suffering. We are blessed to live in a country where we don't have to suffer to serve and worship God.

All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. It says all, so we had better start living Godly. The whole new testament (w/ the exception of the gospels) is speaking to the early church. Shall we pick and choose which ones that apply to us. I think we should live by every word. Dont you claim all the good promises in all Paul's epistles? I bet you do b/c I do. So we better pay attention to other passages that are not so "attractive".

When people say that "we" suffer for Christ it diminishes the real suffering that Christians have endured throughout the age of the church.
The apostles suffered torture, imprisonment and death for Christ, as did the early church, the poor souls that burned at the stake to light the city for Nero, the Christians that had to live in the catacombs with the corpses and stench of death to escape persecution and torture and death, the men who were burned at the stake for daring to translate the Bible into another language and put it in the hands of the common man, the marters who have given their lives to spread the gospel in hostile countries, and on and on and......

Suffer? We know nothing about that.

I Peter 4:1-2 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

This is the suffering that I am talking about - Denying one's self by ceasing from sin. And I do know about that. And it in no way compares to the maryters of the past nor does it have to. I am here to do what the Lord has called me to do and thats all I can do. By this, am I one of these people who is diminishing what you perceive as "real suffering" of people close to 2000 years ago. From God's perspective this is suffering b/c Peter says so - not me! They shall receive the greater reward dont you think? You do believe in rewards dont you? Or are you going to disagree with everything that I say?

 

[John of Japan]

Paul was speaking to the early church who suffered great persecution.

How much have you or I suffered for Christ? Someone laughed at us? Got mad at our preaching? That's not suffering. We are blessed to live in a country where we don't have to suffer to serve and worship God.

When people say that "we" suffer for Christ it diminishes the real suffering that Christians have endured throughout the age of the church.
The apostles suffered torture, imprisonment and death for Christ, as did the early church, the poor souls that burned at the stake to light the city for Nero, the Christians that had to live in the catacombs with the corpses and stench of death to escape persecution and torture and death, the men who were burned at the stake for daring to translate the Bible into another language and put it in the hands of the common man, the marters who have given their lives to spread the gospel in hostile countries, and on and on and......

Suffer? We know nothing about that.

Well said, Amy. The American church is soft and greatly in need of revival.

There are Christians even today around the world suffering in jails in communist (and other) countries, facing physical attacks (in Hindu and Muslim countries) and even death for the cause of Christ. Even here in Japan if a believer is baptized he may be ostrasized by his own family and cast out by his parents. And Americans talk about suffering!

Personally, I think I'll kind of sneak into Heaven (and the millenium) hoping none of those folk ask to compare scars....

 

[npetreley]

Well said, Amy. The American church is soft and greatly in need of revival.

There are Christians even today around the world suffering in jails in communist (and other) countries, facing physical attacks (in Hindu and Muslim countries) and even death for the cause of Christ. Even here in Japan if a believer is baptized he may be ostrasized by his own family and cast out by his parents. And Americans talk about suffering!

Personally, I think I'll kind of sneak into Heaven (and the millenium) hoping none of those folk ask to compare scars....

This is one reason why I don't understand how people can buy into the pre-tribulation rapture. Since when are Christians not appointed to tribulation, even GREAT tribulation? The Bible says we're not appointed to wrath. It doesn't say we'll get yanked out of tribulation. If pre-trib were true, God would have to apologize to all of the martyrs present and past.

 

[Hope of Glory]

If you think it only takes place in other countries, you need to visit up here where Russians who are saved and baptized disappear regularly while out fishing. Eskimos and Russians in remote villages who get baptized will have their heating oil drained when it's -50, grocery stores will not sell to them, and their houses will mysteriously catch fire.

It's not just other countries.

While it's true for the most part that our persecution is minimal, it's still there. And no, I wouldn't want to compare scars. For example, John the Baptizer came preaching the gospel of the Kingdom and telling the truth, and he lost his head. I simply have to drive a little further to go to a church meeting.

By the same token, though, we also receive benefits, quite often. I have several customers who deal with me because of my beliefs.

But, it's not all the "bad" countries who do these things. I have an acquaintance who is a Lutheran preacher who did jail time for preaching against homosexuality, and about 6 months ago, he dropped off the radar completely. Even Muslims, who do have many moral beliefs in common with Christians are persecuted for standing up against homosexuality. There was a Muslim man in Sweden who was cited and threatened by the government because he made two lesbians stop kissing in his restaurant. Never mind that he forbade all forms of intimate contact between everyone, including married, heterosexual couples, the mere fact that he told two lesbians to stop got him in trouble.

 

[J. Jump]

We are blessed to live in a country where we don't have to suffer to serve and worship God.

That is a true statement if you believe in "mainstream" doctrine. You start stepping on church tradition and it's not quite so much fun and games. But there is still GREAT joy in preaching God's Truth!

I just hope we don't go back to the days where they saw people in half because they don't like what you believe. But if that happens God said His grace is sufficient!

 

[J. Jump]

The American church is soft and greatly in need of revival.

John I couldn't agree more. But why is that? Because there is no accountability that is preached. If you sin certain sins then you are just unsaved. And if you commit the little sins it's okay because God is just going to sweep it under the carpet and you'll get your little slice of heaven just like the next guy, but yours may just be a little bit smaller that's all.

People aren't preaching a separation from the world. Our churches look like the world. They are run like the world.

I've attended Baptist churches in three different states since as long as I can remember and I have NEVER . . . NEVER seen anyone that received church discipline.

There was one church that came close one time, but both of the parties left before it got to that, but the church certainly doesn't hold it's members accountable.

Man I thought I had put that soap box in the attic, but it must have fallen out or something :laugh: :tonofbricks:.

 

[npetreley]

While I agree the church is in very sad shape, it only makes it worse to try to fix it with heresy.

 

[J. Jump]

While I agree the church is in very sad shape, it only makes it worse to try to fix it with heresy.

You are absolutely right. We have seen that in the past as well. And telling everyone that no matter what they do they still get a piece of paradise pie, but a smaller piece is not getting us anywhere fast! Or even worse making them question their salvation. Sad.

 

[TCGreek]

While I agree the church is in very sad shape, it only makes it worse to try to fix it with heresy.

1. Brilliant observation. :thumbs:

2. I'm reminded of the Emergent Community, which is another effort to fix the church, but it too is heading in the wrong direction, being driven by the Postmodern posture.

 

[John of Japan]

This is one reason why I don't understand how people can buy into the pre-tribulation rapture. Since when are Christians not appointed to tribulation, even GREAT tribulation? The Bible says we're not appointed to wrath. It doesn't say we'll get yanked out of tribulation. If pre-trib were true, God would have to apologize to all of the martyrs present and past.

Sorry, what Amy said and I agreed with has nothing to do with when the rapture comes.

 

[npetreley]

Sorry, what Amy said and I agreed with has nothing to do with when the rapture comes.

Well, my comment was only with respect to the idea that God would rescue us from tribulation, not the timing. I don't want to de-rail this into a rapture thread, so I won't belabor the point.