Hope of Glory
New Member
J. Jump said:
Good point. "believe" in John 6:29 that you quoted is a present, active, as it is in John 3:16. John 3:16 is talking about works, and it's supported by John 6:28-29.
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John 3
- Thread starter 2 Timothy2:1-4
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Good point. "believe" in John 6:29 that you quoted is a present, active, as it is in John 3:16. John 3:16 is talking about works, and it's supported by John 6:28-29.
2 Timothy2:1-4
New Member
Nicodemus did not know how to be saved. His status as a teacher is not evidence of that. But the evidence of his lack of understanding is layed out in two places in John 3.
1. In v. 4
2. in vs. 9,19
1. In v. 4
2. in vs. 9,19
2 Timothy2:1-4
New Member
The word Kingdom in John 3can be used either to meanChrist's rule, royalty, and reign or it can refer to a physical Kingdom. If the context is Christs rule then it is refering to eternal salvation. If it is refering to the Physical then it can be refering to the Millenium. In John 3 Nicodemus had no idea that he needed to be regenerated. Infact the Jws believed and taught that they were rightful heirs to heaven because they were descendents of Abraham. Nicodemus was as lost as the day was long.
Now HOG you say that Nicodemus was already born again. If this was the case and he understood salvation then why would Christ need to explain it to him even if (for arguments sake) the Kingdom Christ spoke of was the Millenium? Why woud Christ not just say "since you are born again you must save yourself frm 1000 years of God's wrath by working for millenium salvation"? If Nico understood and was saved why would Christ have to explain salvation at all?
Now HOG you say that Nicodemus was already born again. If this was the case and he understood salvation then why would Christ need to explain it to him even if (for arguments sake) the Kingdom Christ spoke of was the Millenium? Why woud Christ not just say "since you are born again you must save yourself frm 1000 years of God's wrath by working for millenium salvation"? If Nico understood and was saved why would Christ have to explain salvation at all?
Hope of Glory
New Member
2 Timothy2:1-4 said:Now HOG you say that Nicodemus was already born again.
No, I said he was born from above, not born again. "Born from above" is what is used in John 3:3.
2 Timothy2:1-4 said:If this was the case and he understood salvation then why would Christ need to explain it to him even if (for arguments sake) the Kingdom Christ spoke of was the Millenium? Why woud Christ not just say "since you are born again you must save yourself frm 1000 years of God's wrath by working for millenium salvation"? If Nico understood and was saved why would Christ have to explain salvation at all?
Born from above is the jumping off point.
If you want to see the Kingdom, you must be born from above. You muse believe (aorist) on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.
If you want to enter (participate) in the Kingdom, you must do some stuff.
If Nicodemus equated the two as many do today, the groundwork must be laid. Many Jews thought that by simply being Jews, they were entitled to the Kingdom.
So, Jesus goes on to explain doing stuff, such as continuing believing (faithful). If you continue or endure, you will have aionian life; if you stop believing, you will not.
It's works. Baptism is a work. Enduring is a work.
Aionian life is dependent upon it.
Very true.2 Timothy2:1-4 said:If Nico understood and was saved why would Christ have to explain salvation at all?
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
It seems like Nicodemus didn't have a clue about being saved or "born from above," or for that matter anything to do with the new birth.
2 Timothy2:1-4
New Member
And I see that my point was avoided.
2 Timothy2:1-4
New Member
Hope of Glory said:No, I said he was born from above, not born again. "Born from above" is what is used in John 3:3.
Born from above is the jumping off point.
If you want to see the Kingdom, you must be born from above. You muse believe (aorist) on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.
If you want to enter (participate) in the Kingdom, you must do some stuff.
If Nicodemus equated the two as many do today, the groundwork must be laid. Many Jews thought that by simply being Jews, they were entitled to the Kingdom.
So, Jesus goes on to explain doing stuff, such as continuing believing (faithful). If you continue or endure, you will have aionian life; if you stop believing, you will not.
It's works. Baptism is a work. Enduring is a work.
Aionian life is dependent upon it.
Repeating this does not answer the question.
2 Timothy2:1-4 said:And I see that my point was avoided.
Of course. Next they'll say, "Precisely! You proved our point!"
2 Timothy2:1-4
New Member
mmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmnpetreley said:Of course. Next they'll say, "Precisely! You proved our point!"
Hope of Glory
New Member
npetreley said:Of course. Next they'll say, "Precisely! You proved our point!"
Of course, next, npetrley will post some Scripture.
Oh, never mind. He hasn't done much yet, so I don't expect him to do so in the future. I don't expect anything more than vituperation from him.
Hope of Glory said:Of course, next, npetrley will post some Scripture.
Oh, never mind. He hasn't done much yet, so I don't expect him to do so in the future. I don't expect anything more than vituperation from him.
Precisely! See? You proved my point that ME is heresy.
Hope of Glory
New Member
2 Timothy2:1-4 said:Repeating this does not answer the question.
It answered this question perfectly:
If Nico understood and was saved why would Christ have to explain salvation at all?
It answered the OP, as well.
Which other question did you want answered?
If you don't beleive the KJV translators. It is a matter of semantics. You must be born again.Hope of Glory said:No, I said he was born from above, not born again. "Born from above" is what is used in John 3:3.
No, it is the real thing. It is salvation. Without it you cannot be saved; you will never have any forgiveness of sin. You will never see Christ, heaven or his kingdom. Your only reward will be hell and eventually the Lake of Fire if you are not born again (from above).Born from above is the jumping off point.
Is this a game of semantics?If you want to see the Kingdom, you must be born from above. You muse believe (aorist) on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.
Like: If you want to see the inside of the house you must enter from the door.
You must believe your employer and you will receive an income.
To enter the kingdom you must open the door and walk in. (Jesus said, "I am the door." )If you want to enter (participate) in the Kingdom, you must do some stuff.
But they weren't. They rejected Christ. He came to his own, and his own received him not.If Nicodemus equated the two as many do today, the groundwork must be laid. Many Jews thought that by simply being Jews, they were entitled to the Kingdom.
Jesus never says anything of the such. Stop preaching heresy.So, Jesus goes on to explain doing stuff, such as continuing believing (faithful). If you continue or endure, you will have aionian life; if you stop believing, you will not.
Are you now making it clear that you believe in a works based salvation. That is heresy.It's works. Baptism is a work. Enduring is a work.
Eternal life is a gift, A free gift given by God at the time of the new birth. You must be born again.Aionian life is dependent upon it.
DHK said:Is this a game of semantics?
Yes. That's why I try not to get drawn in anymore. I'm not sure which is worse - that they may be playing with full knowledge that they're playing, or that they may be so deceived as to believe what they're saying.
Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith
Ac 1:6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Lu 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
Lu 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him
Lu 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him
Lu 24:5 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken
Lu 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
I see nothing here of Jews thinking that they were rightful heirs to heaven. In fact, I see that they were looking for an earthly kingdom (restoration of Israel)
Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
You are right that he had no idea that he needed to be born again, but Jesus implies that he should have since he was a master of Israel
Joe 2:28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Does anyone doubt that God was dealing w/ Israel on a national basis at this time? Wasn't Nicodemas a Jew. God's chosen people were the Jews
Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
God was and will one day continue his work with Israel.
Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Ro 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
I think we should not let our heavenly ambitions blind us to the fact that the primary purpose of justification is to permit access to a relationship to the father through Jesus Christ our Savior.
Ro 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ac 1:6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Lu 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
Lu 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him
Lu 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him
Lu 24:5 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken
Lu 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
I see nothing here of Jews thinking that they were rightful heirs to heaven. In fact, I see that they were looking for an earthly kingdom (restoration of Israel)
Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
You are right that he had no idea that he needed to be born again, but Jesus implies that he should have since he was a master of Israel
Joe 2:28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Does anyone doubt that God was dealing w/ Israel on a national basis at this time? Wasn't Nicodemas a Jew. God's chosen people were the Jews
Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
God was and will one day continue his work with Israel.
Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Ro 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
I think we should not let our heavenly ambitions blind us to the fact that the primary purpose of justification is to permit access to a relationship to the father through Jesus Christ our Savior.
Ro 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Hope of Glory
New Member
DHK said:Are you now making it clear that you believe in a works based salvation. That is heresy.
Since the only thing I've ever said about being born from above is that you need to believe, plus nothing, then I challenge you to show where I've ever applied works to being born from above.
What must I do to be saved?
Believe.
Plus nothing.
In John 3:5, Jesus is talking to Nicodemus about works. He's talking about an entrance into the Kingdom, not getting saved.
No works at all on our part is involved in getting saved spiritually.
If you apply this passage to getting saved, then you my friend are applying works to getting saved.
You have unwittingly just displayed your belief in a works-based salvation.Hope of Glory said:In John 3:5, Jesus is talking to Nicodemus about works. He's talking about an entrance into the Kingdom, not getting saved.
No works at all on our part is involved in getting saved spiritually.
If you apply this passage to getting saved, then you my friend are applying works to getting saved.
Jesus said: You must be born again. In fact he said it three times.
Paul said: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Both statements mean the same thing and have the same result.
Unfortunately you have work #1 + work #2 = salvation + entrance into the kingdom. You believe that salvation is by works.
I believe that salvation is by grace through faith, and that salvation automatically brings me entrance into the kingdom, no questions asked.