John 3

[Hope of Glory]

You have unwittingly just displayed your belief in a works-based salvation.
Jesus said: You must be born again. In fact he said it three times.
Paul said: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Both statements mean the same thing and have the same result.
Unfortunately you have work #1 + work #2 = salvation + entrance into the kingdom. You believe that salvation is by works.
I believe that salvation is by grace through faith, and that salvation automatically brings me entrance into the kingdom, no questions asked.

Spiritual salvation is by grace through faith plus nothing, but if you equate an entrance into the Kingdom with being born from above, then you are equating two unequal things, and you will have a doctrine that contradicts itself because an entrance into the Kingdom is based on works, while salvation is not.

You can mistakenly equate the two all you want, but if you claim that I say that being born from above is based on works, then you are lieing, because I have never said such a thing.

 

[npetreley]

Spiritual salvation is by grace through faith plus nothing

Your ME buddy Jason Jump says faith is a work (see post #137). So any way you slice it, KSers believe salvation is by works. That is, unless you disagree with one of your own.

 

[Run2Win]

.
I believe that salvation is by grace through faith, and that salvation automatically brings me entrance into the kingdom, no questions asked.[/QUOTE}

If I am not mistaken, I believe that in another forum you told a brother that the epistles written to the seven churches in the book of Revalation were directed toward believers and not unbelievers b/c our Lord only recognizes the church as believers. Please pardon my paraphraze.

I believe this as well. If you'll notice that the saved individuals in the church at Thyatira were told: Re 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Re 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

This passage implies that keeping works unto the end are neccessary to receive power over the nations with the Lord Jesus in his Kingdom. What if they did not keep his works until the end? What about you and I? Justification is a gift. This passage is not dealing with justification since these are already justified (saved) individuals in the church at Thyatira, but rather reward based upon works accomplished through faithfulness. So does salvation automatically bring us entrance to the Kingdom?

Whats your opinion?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Your ME buddy Jason Jump says faith is a work (see post #137). So any way you slice it, KSers believe salvation is by works. That is, unless you disagree with one of your own.

You are quite correct. I let my fingers type faster than my brain sometimes. Ephesians 2:8 is "you are (present, indicative) being saved" (perfect, passive, participle) through faith.

Faith is a lifestyle.

You believe (aorist; mental assent, plus nothing) to be saved.

 

[npetreley]

Good thing you cleared that up. A little truth almost slipped into your heresy.

 

[Run2Win]

Your ME buddy Jason Jump says faith is a work (see post #137). So any way you slice it, KSers believe salvation is by works. That is, unless you disagree with one of your own.

Let me get this straight. KSers probably means Kingdom Seekers correct? ME means Millennial Exclusion correct? Someone tell me if I am right. Are these self proclaimed titles?

Mt 6:9 ¶ After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mt 6:0 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven
Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

I hope that these scriptures aren't offensive, they just came to mind while pondering the meanings of the titles KSers & ME -- that is if I am guessing the correct meaning of them.

 

[npetreley]

Let me get this straight. KSers probably means Kingdom Seekers correct? ME means Millennial Exclusion correct? Someone tell me if I am right. Are these self proclaimed titles?

KS = Kingdom Salvation

Mt 6:9 ¶ After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mt 6:0 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven
Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

I hope that these scriptures aren't offensive, they just came to mind while pondering the meanings of the titles KSers & ME -- that is if I am guessing the correct meaning of them.

That's cool. Here's what comes to my mind when I read the heresy of works-based salvation (KS):

33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

and...

1 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

and...

16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

and...

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

...but MOST of all...

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

I hope the KSers and MEers are offended by these scriptures. The cross is an offense to those who believe they can be justified by their works. That's the way it's supposed to be.

 

[Run2Win]

I did not even mention the law as a means of justification. I'm glad were in agreement there. Where did you get that? Why all the bitterness against me? I haven't attacked you. I simply asked questions.

I could sit here and qute scriptures all night about our Lord judging his people, but that will not get us anywhere.
This is a simple FREINDLY question - Do you see any accountability to the Lord after a person is saved? How and when?
Not, Not, Not justification by law.

 

[npetreley]

I did not even mention the law as a means of justification. I'm glad were in agreement there. Where did you get that? Why all the bitterness against me? I haven't attacked you. I simply asked questions.

I could sit here and qute scriptures all night about our Lord judging his people, but that will not get us anywhere.
This is a simple FREINDLY question - Do you see any accountability to the Lord after a person is saved? How and when?
Not, Not, Not justification by law.

Yes, the Bible does talk about accountability. But this thread isn't about accountability, and KS/ME isn't about Biblical accountability, either. If you want to discuss Biblical accountability, start another thread on it.

 

[Run2Win]

Yes, the Bible does talk about accountability. But this thread isn't about accountability, and KS/ME isn't about Biblical accountability, either. If you want to discuss Biblical accountability, start another thread on it.

The discussion of accountability came up on my end as a question to you to see if you have an opinion on anything other than slandering other believers. If you will be so kind as to look at posts #158 & 163 I dealt with the matter at hand(John 3 & DHK's previous post). I would like to see the same from you. Check yourself on posts #162 & 165 - maybe you should start another thread for people who will not answer questions in a civilized manner.

Now can you answer the questions that I asked or will you keep wasting your time and mine. Once AGAIN, I have been respectful to you and I deserve the same treatment. Answer my questions in a coherent rational manner or let someone else respond. It is not glorifying to our Lord to speak evil of any man, especially not fellow bretheren in Christ.

 

[John of Japan]

I am still waiting for an answer to some of my research by those who believe aionios never means "everlasting," in John 3 for example. In particular:

(1) In Clement’s first letter to the Corinthians 18:1 it refers to God’s “eternal mercy.” How could God’s mercy not be eternal but only for the age? We cannot limit God's mercy. It is a part of His character, not something He puts on only for an age.

(2) Is. 60:20 (in the LXX) says in English, "For the Lord shall be thine everlasting Light," using aionios. Surely no orthodox Christian believes that God as the Light is only "age-during"!!

(3) HofG gave scholars that translated "eternal God" (Theos aionios) in Is. 40:28 as "age-during" God. However, that was from the Hebrew. I was quoting from the LXX, where the Greek adjective is in the predicate relation, making an assertion about the noun. Therefore, Young's translation ("the God of the age") does not work for the Greek, though it may be okay for the Hebrew. As the Greek stands, aionios must describe the nature of God, not His relation to the "age." It must mean "eternal" in this passage.

J. Jump? Hope of Glory?

 

[npetreley]

(3) HofG gave scholars that translated "eternal God" (Theos aionios) in Is. 40:28 as "age-during" God. However, that was from the Hebrew. I was quoting from the LXX, where the Greek adjective is in the predicate relation, making an assertion about the noun. Therefore, Young's translation ("the God of the age") does not work for the Greek, though it may be okay for the Hebrew. As the Greek stands, aionios must describe the nature of God, not His relation to the "age." It must mean "eternal" in this passage.

This is one of those cases where Young's Literal is a poor choice to understand the text. Claiming that aionios must mean "age" in this case would be like claiming a potato is really an apple because the literal translation of "pomme de terre" is "apple of the earth".

 

[DHK]

.
I believe that salvation is by grace through faith, and that salvation automatically brings me entrance into the kingdom, no questions asked.[/QUOTE}

If I am not mistaken, I believe that in another forum you told a brother that the epistles written to the seven churches in the book of Revalation were directed toward believers and not unbelievers b/c our Lord only recognizes the church as believers. Please pardon my paraphraze.

I believe this as well. If you'll notice that the saved individuals in the church at Thyatira were told: Re 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Re 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

This passage implies that keeping works unto the end are neccessary to receive power over the nations with the Lord Jesus in his Kingdom. What if they did not keep his works until the end? What about you and I? Justification is a gift. This passage is not dealing with justification since these are already justified (saved) individuals in the church at Thyatira, but rather reward based upon works accomplished through faithfulness. So does salvation automatically bring us entrance to the Kingdom?

Whats your opinion?

That is your interpretation of the passage. I will endure to the end. I will not falter. I will not fail. I will never disown my Savior. There is no conjecture here. There is no "IF" here. Why? God has changed my life. The Holy Spirit dwells within me and continues to change my life; contnues to work in me making me every day more like Him, ever more conforming me to the image of Christ. Why should I go back and do the things that I did before I was saved? I don't even think of it.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are saved by grace through faith...created unto good works.
There is no if. There are no works involved.
Saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God not of works
It can't be any clearer.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Ephesians 2:10 disagrees with you: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should (subjuntive) walk in them."

There is no guarantee that we will walk in them, according to the Scriptures.

 

[npetreley]

Ephesians 2:10 disagrees with you: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should (subjuntive) walk in them."

There is no guarantee that we will walk in them, according to the Scriptures.

This is a primary example of what I said KSers/MEers do. We've already shown you that subjunctive doesn't work the way you think it does. You simply ignore it and keep pretending you haven't been proved wrong.

 

[TCGreek]

Ephesians 2:10 disagrees with you: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should (subjuntive) walk in them."

There is no guarantee that we will walk in them, according to the Scriptures.

Others who are fimiliar with how the Greek works will take you up on that.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Others who are fimiliar with how the Greek works will take you up on that.

And has been shown, many, kif not most, agree with what I have said on the grammar, although some then say, "But it obviously doesn't really mean what it says", and then try to explain it away.

It comes down to your scholars vs my scholars, and one thing that I have noticed is that secular Greek scholars who don't have a dog in the hunt side with what I have presented here on the grammar. They simply reject the content.

 

[npetreley]

Others who are fimiliar with how the Greek works will take you up on that.

It's not just Greek. They don't even have a grasp of the English language.

Oh, and then they retreat to the cowardly "my scholars vs. your scholars". No scholar is going to insist the subjunctive must mean "possible and not definite" when the same passage using the subjunctive also says "he WILL do it". But that was another argument they conveniently ignored because it shreds their entire doctrine.

According to ME, I wonder how many years in the lake of fire you get for being so intellectually dishonest?

.

 

[Amy.G]

I had a thought today.

If a person is saved 1 second before they die, according to what we've learned from the ME's, this person is forgiven of all past sins but didn't have enough time before death to commit any other sin(s)...then they are assured of going straight to heaven and not going to 1000 years of torment.

It seems that that dying immediately after salvation is the safest way to go! :laugh:

 

[npetreley]

I had a thought today.

If a person is saved 1 second before they die, according to what we've learned from the ME's, this person is forgiven of all past sins but didn't have enough time before death to commit any other sin(s)...then they are assured of going straight to heaven and not going to 1000 years of torment.

It seems that that dying immediately after salvation is the safest way to go! :laugh:

Funny you should mention that! I had the same thought a couple days ago. I almost suggested suicide at salvation, but I'm sure the ME guys would say we'd suffer for 1,000 years for killing ourselves.

However, by extension, one could say that of God were truly merciful, he'd kill us off the moment we're saved. That way he could make sure none of his children burn in the lake of fire for 1,000 years.