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John 5:25-29??

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Iconoclast

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:QUOTE=asterisktom;1846928]How can I misrepresent you when I quote you verbatim?

You said faith is an ability.
I said that you said "faith is an ability".
Where is the misrepresentation???

Speaking of misrepresenting, who is taking about faith being held in the hand?

OK. I am done here.

I have to go nail some Jello to the wall.[/QUOTE]

:laugh::laugh::applause::thumbs:
 
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Iconoclast

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webdog said:
Merely means not everybody has genuine faith in the truth as those Paul was addressing, nothing about ability or not being able to believe, that is ripping the verse from context and giving it your own meaning
Click to expand...

Winman says all men have inherent faith....

here is what he said:
Faith is an innate ability all men have.
Click to expand...



.Paul disagrees....not all men have faith......it is the gift of God.

Did you respond to post 199???
 
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Winman

Active Member
Iconoclast said:
Winman says all men have inherent faith....

here is what he said:



.Paul disagrees....not all men have faith......it is the gift of God.

Did you respond to post 199???
Click to expand...

What a juvenile argument. Just because a person does not have faith in God does not mean he has no ability to believe.

Would you trust Bernie Maddoff with your life savings after you have learned he has swindled folks for millions? I wouldn't. That doesn't mean I cannot trust another person with my money.

Everybody is trusting in something at all times. Before trusting in Jesus, most folks were trusting in their own righteousness to get them to heaven. They had faith, but it was not in Jesus.

Faith is a choice. When you trust Jesus, you decide to no longer trust in your own works and righteousness to get you to heaven, and to trust in Jesus alone.

All faith is a choice. Some folks will not get on an airplane, because they do not believe it is safe. Another person considers that millions of folks fly every day without incident and that plane crashes are very rare, and decides to trust the plane and get on. It is a decision based upon reasoning.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

The Pharisee had faith, but his faith was not in the true God, his faith was in himself, that he was righteous and could merit salvation through his own works. But he had faith.

You folks do not even know what faith is. It is a reliance or dependence upon another, it is not some magical, mystical thing.
 
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Iconoclast

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Winman said:
Faith is a choice.
All faith is a choice.
It is a decision based upon reasoning.
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This is your philosophy...but scripture does not indicate this anywhere.

Since the fall man's reasoning is twisted and perverted.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God
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This is different than what you say.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

What a juvenile argument. Just because a person does not have faith in God does not mean he has no ability to believe.
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this makes no sense
 
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preacher4truth

Active Member
convicted1 said:
If He makes someone take it, then it's not a gift.
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That's a complete misnomer and strawman. Tell me anyone who was 'forced' to be saved against their will.

That's right, you can't.

Now, let's stick to the facts. OK?

Here we go:

The thing is, that those who believe faith is like having faith in a can of tuna (as per winmans philosophy of canned goods or whatever he said along that line) then that makes salvation a reward, not a gift. Regardless, if it is inherent ability as winman claims in his philosophy, which is way not Biblical, then I reiterate: salvation = reward.

I'm sure you can see the error here.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
convicted1 said:
John 25-29

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Now, I hear the other side of the debate and how the spiritually dead can not hear God unto they are "quickened"/"made alive"/"regenerated", and then, and only then, can they hear. Now, how do you explain that those who are resurrected to the resurrection of damnation are able to hear God when He calls them from their graves? Remember, millions, and probably billions will have been in the ground for centuries, and their physical bodies have probably mouldered back to the dust. So please explain this, that those who are spiritually dead are able to hear God and yet they are resurrected to be cast into the "second death", where, death, hell, satan and his minions will be cast too.

I posted this in the "faith a reuquiremnt?" thread, and I guess they missed it? :rolleyes:
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What the Bible teaches is that the unregenerate man is dead IN SIN.

The point is not that he cannot hear the voice of God if he speaks audibly.

The point is that he is dead to righteousness. He cannot understand it. He cannot perform it. He cannot see it.

Even his so-called righteousness is filthy rags before God.

The Bible could not be more clear. I do not see how one who cannot see this fact can see anything in the Bible.

No one in this state EVER seeks after God.

No one in this state EVER is subject to the law of God- and the Bible says, in no uncertain terms, "neither indeed CAN HE BE".

The Bible says of the person in this unregenerate state that even his PLOWING is wickedness.

This man's heart is DESPERATELY wicked, deceitful above ALL THINGS.

This is the condition in which his first birth left him.

In order to be able to even seek after God he must be born a second time; born very differently from the way he was born the first time. He must be born from above.

Jesus said that except a man be born again he cannot even SEE the Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom of God in this context, as in most other contexts where it is found in scripture, is not HEAVEN. No. The Kingdom of God is the sphere of God reign where he is gladly recognized as King.

The unregenerate man cannot even SEE this Kingdom until he is born again.

Nothing could be clearer in Scripture than this.
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
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Iconoclast said:
Winman says all men have inherent faith....

here is what he said:



.Paul disagrees....not all men have faith......it is the gift of God.

Did you respond to post 199???
Click to expand...
Paul agrees...he just disagrees with you using his words out of context :)

Not everyone has faith in Christ...hence "not all men have faith". Winman is right, it is a fallacious argument to use this verse to say not all men can have saving faith. It is not the faith that saves but the OBJECT of the faith that does.
 
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convicted1

Guest
Iconoclast said:
Salvation is not forced upon those unwilling....where do you get this stuff Willis???? Who do you know that God has saved ...who hates it:BangHead:
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I was referring to faith as a gift, not salvation. A gift can be rejected, period.


"Lighten up Francis", to quote my precious Brother and fellow Raiderite, P4T.
 
O

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Luke2427 said:
What the Bible teaches is that the unregenerate man is dead IN SIN.

The point is not that he cannot hear the voice of God if he speaks audibly.

The point is that he is dead to righteousness. He cannot understand it. He cannot perform it. He cannot see it.

Even his so-called righteousness is filthy rags before God.

The Bible could not be more clear. I do not see how one who cannot see this fact can see anything in the Bible.

No one in this state EVER seeks after God.

No one in this state EVER is subject to the law of God- and the Bible says, in no uncertain terms, "neither indeed CAN HE BE".

The Bible says of the person in this unregenerate state that even his PLOWING is wickedness.

This man's heart is DESPERATELY wicked, deceitful above ALL THINGS.

This is the condition in which his first birth left him.

In order to be able to even seek after God he must be born a second time; born very differently from the way he was born the first time. He must be born from above.

Jesus said that except a man be born again he cannot even SEE the Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom of God in this context, as in most other contexts where it is found in scripture, is not HEAVEN. No. The Kingdom of God is the sphere of God reign where he is gladly recognized as King.

The unregenerate man cannot even SEE this Kingdom until he is born again.

Nothing could be clearer in Scripture than this.
Click to expand...

Excellent points above and an excellent, though brief, summary [Much of Scripture deals with the character/sin nature of mankind.] of Biblical teaching about unregenerate mankind.

I do not believe that man, even regenerate man, can come close to understanding the absolute righteousness, the eternal holiness of God. I know that I can't!:tear:

I fear that some people have unconsciously subscribed to the saying "the man upstairs". In doing so the temptation is to contrast the righteousness of God with the righteousness [if it can be called that] of man. A grievous error!:tear:

Christians are supposedly aware of the cross. I wonder how many Christians ever ponder as to the cost of the Incarnation to God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We might get just a hint if we prayerfully read John 17!
 
webdog

webdog

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OldRegular said:
Well said Amy.G! Sadly some believe they are only a little list and they give themselves a shove, a gentle shove!
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This is the strawman you erect. Nobody believes they are a "little lost" and the rest of the hogwash you suggest.:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:
 
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