John 5:25-29??

[asterisktom]

Winman vs. Winman

I would disagree that faith is a gift from God.
Faith is a God-given ability ...

These two boil down to:
1. God doesn't give faith.
2. God gives faith ("God-given").

Which is it? In your zeal, Winman, against all things related to DoG you are contradicting yourself.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, that is true.

I would like to say that without a work of God, nobody would EVER in a million years believe that Jesus (a man, and a Jew) who walked the earth 2000 years ago was actually God, creator of the universe, died to forgive sin, rose from the dead, and now is in heaven where He waits to return and judge the world.

That is simply impossible for the natural man to believe! It can only be believed by the Spirit of God causing one to believe it. Amen?[/QUOTE:applause::wavey::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

So Sissy, are you in the pre-faith regeneration camp now?

resistance is futile Willis....:wavey::laugh::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

You are confusing revelation with regeneration, they are not the same.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

The scriptures say the grace of God that bringeth salvation has APPEARED TO ALL MEN. But not every man is saved is he?

And so much for Calvinism's false teaching of a "general call" and an "effectual call". This verse says the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Jesus said those that see him AND BELIEVE shall have life. It is not enough to simply see, you must also believe.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Did these men see Jesus? Yes.

Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

A person can know who Jesus is and yet not believe. Until you believe, you do not have life.

Winman......of course believers must believe.....otherwise they would remain unbelievers. It all happens at once Winman.....you are confusing your self.

 

[Winman]

Winman......of course believers must believe.....otherwise they would remain unbelievers. It all happens at once Winman.....you are confusing your self.

I am not mixed up at all. Until a person believes, they remain in their sins, they are condemned already, and the wrath of God abides on them.

The scriptures teach that righteousness is imputed to us AFTER we believe.

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 4 tells us that Abraham believed the promises of God, and "therefore" it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Now here is the problem. According to Calvinism, Abraham could not possibly have believed God unless he were already regenerated. But the scriptures absolutely say that righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of his faith.

This is made even more sure in verse 24 where it says righteousness will be imputed to us also "if we believe". Righteousness is not imputed until a person believes on Christ.

So, before Abraham actually believed, he was still in his sins, he was condemned and under the wrath of God. It is impossible that he was regenerated before he believed.

Calvinism would say this of Abraham;

1) Abraham was regenerated to have the ability to believe
2) Abraham believed God
3) Righteousness was imputed to Abraham

If you do not see the difficulty here, you are beyond help. You have Abraham regenerated and spiritually alive before his sins are forgiven.

The scriptures say this;

1) Abraham believed God
2) Righteousness was imputed to Abraham
3) Abraham no longer being condemned as a sinner had life

No one can be spiritually alive until they believe.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jesus said the person that believes has everlasting life. He said the person who has not believed shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Abraham did not have life until he believed. Until he believed the wrath of God abode on him.

You cannot be regenerated for a micro-second until you first believe. Only upon believing are your sins forgiven and you are made alive.

If you can't get this, I cannot help you.

 

[percho]

At what moment did the unbeliever Saul/Paul become a believer and why all of a sudden did he become a believer and just what was it he believed at that moment that he had not believed the moment before?

And I wish I had some more and's.

 

[Winman]

At what moment did the unbeliever Saul/Paul become a believer and why all of a sudden did he become a believer and just what was it he believed at that moment that he had not believed the moment before?

And I wish I had some more and's.

Why does one person like chocolate ice cream while another likes vanilla?

Asking questions that cannot be answered is to no profit and proves no position.

I know why I believed, but I cannot begin to tell you why another person did not. You would have to ask them.

Now, in the case of Paul, the Lord Jesus himself appeared to him and identified himself, so it would be very difficult to deny what your own eyes have seen and your own ears have heard.

But this is not the case with the vast majority of Christians. Most of us are only exposed to the revelation of nature, and the preaching of the word of God, and from this evidence we must make our decision whether the word of God is true or not.

But you have to ask each individual why they believed or not. They will tell you.

 

[percho]

Why does one person like chocolate ice cream while another likes vanilla?

Asking questions that cannot be answered is to no profit and proves no position.

I know why I believed, but I cannot begin to tell you why another person did not. You would have to ask them.

Now, in the case of Paul, the Lord Jesus himself appeared to him and identified himself, so it would be very difficult to deny what your own eyes have seen and your own ears have heard.

But this is not the case with the vast majority of Christians. Most of us are only exposed to the revelation of nature, and the preaching of the word of God, and from this evidence we must make our decision whether the word of God is true or not.

But you have to ask each individual why they believed or not. They will tell you.

Therefore the death of Jesus of Nazareth the Christ and God the Father raising him from the dead is not what saved man it was just what was done as something that will bring a man salvation IF He will believe? The actual salvation is up to the individual man to bring upon himself through his belief?

 

[Winman]

Therefore the death of Jesus of Nazareth the Christ and God the Father raising him from the dead is not what saved man it was just what was done as something that will bring a man salvation IF He will believe? The actual salvation is up to the individual man to bring upon himself through his belief?

The grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11), but we only have access to this grace by faith.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Jesus died for every man's sins, but the only persons who have access to this grace are those who believe. That is God's requirement, he set the criteria of what we must do to receive this grace.

That is why no man can be regenerated until they believe, we are justified by faith. Until you believe your sins are not forgiven and you are still dead in all your trespasses and sins.

If faith is not required, then all men would be saved, as Jesus died for all men.

Jesus did all the work necessary to save us, but we must quit ourselves and trust in him only to save us. Folks do not understand what biblical faith is. It does not mean to simply accept a fact, it means to lean upon or depend upon Jesus only to save us. You have to give up all hopes of saving yourself and cast yourself completely upon Jesus. Only then do you receive God's grace.

 

[webdog]

Yes, that is true.

I would like to say that without a work of God, nobody would EVER in a million years believe that Jesus (a man, and a Jew) who walked the earth 2000 years ago was actually God, creator of the universe, died to forgive sin, rose from the dead, and now is in heaven where He waits to return and judge the world.

That is simply impossible for the natural man to believe! It can only be believed by the Spirit of God causing one to believe it. Amen?

...and that work of God is the gospel, our existence, His creation and our conscious. There is no mystical work besides that which He has told us was given in Scripture.

 

[webdog]

Therefore the death of Jesus of Nazareth the Christ and God the Father raising him from the dead is not what saved man it was just what was done as something that will bring a man salvation IF He will believe? The actual salvation is up to the individual man to bring upon himself through his belief?

No, salvation is up to God who has decreed how He has given it, and it is never apart from faith. From what it sounds like above absolutely nothing is necessary to be saved but Christ's death. Surely you don't believe that!

 

[percho]

The grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11), but we only have access to this grace by faith.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Jesus died for every man's sins, but the only persons who have access to this grace are those who believe. That is God's requirement, he set the criteria of what we must do to receive this grace.

That is why no man can be regenerated until they believe, we are justified by faith. Until you believe your sins are not forgiven and you are still dead in all your trespasses and sins.

If faith is not required, then all men would be saved, as Jesus died for all men.

Jesus did all the work necessary to save us, but we must quit ourselves and trust in him only to save us. Folks do not understand what biblical faith is. It does not mean to simply accept a fact, it means to lean upon or depend upon Jesus only to save us. You have to give up all hopes of saving yourself and cast yourself completely upon Jesus. Only then do you receive God's grace.

The grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men. How? By the resurrection of Jesus. That is the grace of God.

We are justified by faith. =s blood the death of Christ
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood,
It is the death of Jesus that justifies, imputes with the righteousness of God
V10 reconciles us to God the Father.

We through the faith of Jesus Christ are given the promise of the Holy Spirit
sanctifying, stands us, in the grace bestowed upon Jesus Christ by the resurrection, which is our hope of the glory of God that is eternal life.

V10 being reconciled, (justified and given the Holy Spirit) we shall be saved by his life.
Titus 3:7 That being justified, by his grace we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Winman]

These two boil down to:
1. God doesn't give faith.
2. God gives faith ("God-given").

Which is it? In your zeal, Winman, against all things related to DoG you are contradicting yourself.

Faith is an ability all men are born with. It is God-given, just as all of our abilities are God-given.

Even animals have faith, Jesus himself showed this.

Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Sheep have faith, they trust their shepherd, they are fearful and mistrust a stranger.

There is nothing magical about faith. But we could not have faith in Jesus unless God had revealed him to us through the scriptures and men who preach the word of God. This is precisely what Paul says in Romans 10.

 

[OldRegular]

Faith is an ability all men are born with. It is God-given, just as all of our abilities are God-given.

Even animals have faith, Jesus himself showed this.

Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Sheep have faith, they trust their shepherd, they are fearful and mistrust a stranger.

There is nothing magical about faith. But we could not have faith in Jesus unless God had revealed him to us through the scriptures and men who preach the word of God. This is precisely what Paul says in Romans 10.

Winman,

Jesus Christ is obviously using a figure of speech called simile.

Simile: A figure of speech in which two fundamentally unlike things are explicitly compared, usually in a phrase introduced by like or as.

This can easily be shown by the following Scripture:

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

But to say that animals have "faith" comparable to "the gift that God gives" is beyond ridiculous.

 

[percho]

Is not faith by definition a supernatural phenomenon?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Can a man outside of the influence of God produce either?

 

[convicted1]

Is not faith by definition a supernatural phenomenon?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Can a man outside of the influence of God produce either?

Faith is a gift of God. But a gift can be rejected, too.

 

[OldRegular]

Faith is a gift of God. But a gift can be rejected, too.

Not after you are "born again" through the grace of the Holy Spirit!

 

[Iconoclast]

Faith is a gift of God. But a gift can be rejected, too.

Cmon Willis......if God is the giver of the gift.....and he makes a person willing.....I think he knows how to give the gift effectually:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

...and that work of God is the gospel, our existence, His creation and our conscious. There is no mystical work besides that which He has told us was given in Scripture.

This is not clear.....

You are not saying that the work of the Spirit in quickening a dead sinner to life.....is not a supernatural work are you????

It sounds like you think it is only an intellectual proposition.

 

[Winman]

Winman,

Jesus Christ is obviously using a figure of speech called simile.

Simile: A figure of speech in which two fundamentally unlike things are explicitly compared, usually in a phrase introduced by like or as.

This can easily be shown by the following Scripture:

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

But to say that animals have "faith" comparable to "the gift that God gives" is beyond ridiculous.

It may have been a simile, but animals have faith. I have told the story of the cat we rescued from a shelter. This cat had been abused and was terrified of everyone, including us at first. We could not come near the cat or he would run away in pure terror. But after 3 or 4 months this cat came to trust us and now we can pick him up, and he will come to us when we call. This is real faith.

The example Jesus gave was a reality, sheep are known to be fearful of strangers, but they trust their shepherd and will follow him anywhere.

Faith is an innate ability all men have. Faith can be great or small, faith can be injured. Let's say you invested in the stock market and lost your life savings. A person could lose faith in the market and never trust his money to the stock market again.

Faith also can grow. As we come to God in prayer and see our prayers answered, our faith grows.

The word of God enables faith. We could not possibly believe in Jesus Christ if the word of God did not reveal him to us. As we read the scriptures and see how kind and merciful Jesus was, how he always kept his word and never lied, we can come to trust him. We are not zapped with faith, but are enabled to believe by the word of God.

No man can possibly be regenerated or spiritually alive until he first believes on Jesus. Until you believe you are dead in sins, condemned already, and the wrath of God abides on you. The moment you believe your sins are forgiven and you are no longer dead in sins.

It is impossible to be regenerated until your sins are forgiven, and your sins are not forgiven until you believe on Jesus. Faith MUST precede regeneration.

Believe what you will.