-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
John 5:25-29??
- Thread starter convicted1
- Start date
- Status
psalms109:31
Active Member
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
Matthew 11
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Hebrews 4 :
1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[Some manuscripts because those who heard did not combine it with faith] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[c] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[Or labor] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
Matthew 11
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Hebrews 4 :
1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[Some manuscripts because those who heard did not combine it with faith] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[c] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[Or labor] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
Last edited by a moderator:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Bless you Amy.G! Where you been? I said you were good. Reduce all that verbiage by a single verse of Scripture!
psalms109:31
Active Member
Matthew 20:
32 So Jesus stood still and called them, and said, “What do you want Me to do for you?”
33 They said to Him, “Lord, that our eyes may be opened.” 34 So Jesus had compassion and touched their eyes. And immediately their eyes received sight, and they followed Him.
2 Corinthians 3:
13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Praise Jesus that He opens the eyes of those who comes and turns to Him alone and don't lean on their own understanding.
No. He has to open your eyes before you will come. You must be drawn. God has to flip the proverbial light switch so that you are able to "see" Him.
Well, then Spurgeon contradicts himself (which he often did)
Here you go, Spurgeon said the Lord will save us UPON our believing in Jesus. He said the Lord will give to those who believe ALL that is declared to be necessary for salvation. He said the Lord produces the new birth in all who BELIEVE in Jesus. He said it is ours to believe, it is the Lord's job to create us anew. He said it is enough for us to obey, it is for the Lord to work the new birth.
So, Spurgeon here is absolutely saying that faith is required to be regenerated.
It doesn't really matter what Spurgeon said, what matters is what the scriptures say. Jesus said a man must come to him to have life.
Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Jesus said you have to come to him to have life. Calvinism teaches that a man must be regenerated before he is able to come. Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of scripture.
And note that Jesus did not say they "cannot" come, he said they "will not" come to him for life.
It is simple, if you believe you are regenerated before you place faith in Christ, then you believe in life outside of Christ.
Believe whatever you wish. Those who truly seek truth will know who is right.
psalms109:31
Active Member
2 Corinthians 3:
14It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
You are confusing revelation with regeneration, they are not the same.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
The scriptures say the grace of God that bringeth salvation has APPEARED TO ALL MEN. But not every man is saved is he?
And so much for Calvinism's false teaching of a "general call" and an "effectual call". This verse says the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Jesus said those that see him AND BELIEVE shall have life. It is not enough to simply see, you must also believe.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Did these men see Jesus? Yes.
Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
A person can know who Jesus is and yet not believe. Until you believe, you do not have life.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Not really Winman. Sometimes Spurgeon's emphasizes faith at other times he emphasizes the work of the Holy Spirit. Your problem is that you have a one track mind. I have said repeatedly that faith is an essential aspect of Salvation. It simply cannot occur until it is given by God.
Read again Winman, but read carefully. I don't see the word "required" in the above quote.
Winman you left out the context of Spurgeon's remarks above.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
But, then, the fourteenth and fifteenth verses speak:
John 3:14, 15
14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The eighteenth verse repeats the same doctrine in the broadest terms:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Makes a big difference. Might help you understand what Spurgeon is trying to teach you. It is the same message as in the following remark of Spurgeon.
There is no discrepancy between the truth that the sinner believes, and that his faith is wrought in him by the Holy Spirit.
Faith is enabled by God. You cannot believe what you do not know or have never heard of.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Paul asks three very sensible questions here. First he asks how a man shall call on him in whom he has not believed. If you do not believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins and rose from the dead, then you are not going to call on him. If you think Jesus was just an ordinary man who died 2000 years ago and is in the grave, you are not going to call on him.
Second, Paul asks "how" (ability) shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? This is simple, you could not possibly believe in Jesus unless you have heard of him. Does Paul ask "how" any man shall believe if he has not been regenerated? No, and he never says any such thing anywhere in scripture.
Third, Paul asks how shall they hear without a preacher? If God did not give his word and preachers to preach it, neither you nor I would know anything about Jesus and therefore could not believe in him. Does Paul ask how shall they hear unless they be regenerated? No, they simply have to hear preaching.
Here Paul is directly discussing "how" a person believes and he does not mention one word about being regenerated. In fact, in verse 17 he simply says faith comes by "hearing", not regeneration. But we cannot hear any old thing, we have to hear the word of God. The word of God enables you to believe, but you must choose to believe of your own free will.
I can't believe how you can read scripture and yet be oblivious to it. Yes, Jesus said you must be born again to see the kingdom of God, but he then compares it to the fiery serpents in the wilderness. When they were bitten, they were required to look in faith to the brass serpent on a pole. If they did not look in faith they would die. In the same manner, we have to look to Jesus and believe on him to have life, to be born again.
If Jesus was trying to prove that being born again does not involve cooperation on the part of a sinner, then picking the illustration of the brass serpent on a pole is a very poor pick of scripture indeed. Those bitten were required to look in faith to be healed. If they did not look they would die.
It is right in front of you, and yet you cannot see it.
Last edited by a moderator:
convicted1
Guest
So Sissy, are you in the pre-faith regeneration camp now?
convicted1
Guest
Brother Psalms,
You are sooooo spot on with your posts. And yet others pass them by......
You are sooooo spot on with your posts. And yet others pass them by......
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Amy,G is in the Biblical Doctrine of Grace camp now!:applause::love2:
You might read that quote you use:
“Salvation is from our side a choice, from the divine side it is a seizing upon, an apprehending, a conquest by the Most High God. Our ''accepting'' and ''willing'' are reactions rather than actions. The right of determination must always remain with God.” A.W. Tozer
Spurgeon says something similar:
There is no discrepancy between the truth that the sinner believes, and that his faith is wrought in him by the Holy Spirit.
Sadly some on this Forum are blind to these truths.:tear::BangHead:
psalms109:31
Active Member
When someone makes a bold statement that regeneration before faith is ridiculous and you try to make other things he says, say other wise then what have you done?
"This doctrine is as much God's Word as the other. You ask me to reconcile the two. I answer, they do not want any reconcilement; I never tried to reconcile them to myself, because I could never see a discrepancy. If you begin to put fifty or sixty quibbles to me, I cannot give any answer. Both are true; no two truths can be inconsistent with each other; and what you have to do is to believe them both. With the first one, the saint has most to do. Let him praise the free and sovereign grace of God, and bless his name. With the second, the sinner has the most to do. O sinner, humble thyself under the mighty hand of God, when thou thinkest of how often he hath shown his love to thee, by bidding thee come to himself, and yet how often thou hast spurned his Word and refused his mercy, and turned a deaf ear to every invitation, and hast gone thy way to rebel against a God of love, and violate the commands of him that loved thee.
And now, how shall I conclude? My first exhortation shall be to Christian people. My dear friends, I beseech you do not in any way give yourselves lip to any system of faith apart from the Word of God. The Bible, and the Bible alone, is the religion of Protestants; I am the successor of the great and venerated Dr. Gill, whose theology is almost universally received among the stronger Calvinistic churches; but although I venerate his memory, and believe his teachings, yet he is not my Rabbi. What you find in God's Word is for you to believe and to receive."
C.H. Spurgeon
"This doctrine is as much God's Word as the other. You ask me to reconcile the two. I answer, they do not want any reconcilement; I never tried to reconcile them to myself, because I could never see a discrepancy. If you begin to put fifty or sixty quibbles to me, I cannot give any answer. Both are true; no two truths can be inconsistent with each other; and what you have to do is to believe them both. With the first one, the saint has most to do. Let him praise the free and sovereign grace of God, and bless his name. With the second, the sinner has the most to do. O sinner, humble thyself under the mighty hand of God, when thou thinkest of how often he hath shown his love to thee, by bidding thee come to himself, and yet how often thou hast spurned his Word and refused his mercy, and turned a deaf ear to every invitation, and hast gone thy way to rebel against a God of love, and violate the commands of him that loved thee.
And now, how shall I conclude? My first exhortation shall be to Christian people. My dear friends, I beseech you do not in any way give yourselves lip to any system of faith apart from the Word of God. The Bible, and the Bible alone, is the religion of Protestants; I am the successor of the great and venerated Dr. Gill, whose theology is almost universally received among the stronger Calvinistic churches; but although I venerate his memory, and believe his teachings, yet he is not my Rabbi. What you find in God's Word is for you to believe and to receive."
C.H. Spurgeon
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No! Faith is the gift of God!
I have never stated that one can believe "what you do not know or have never heard of." I don't recall anyone on this Forum making such a statement. In fact in my post #54 I wrote the following:
Now I don't see in the above quote where I said: You can believe what you do not know or have never heard of.
I would disagree that faith is a gift from God. Faith is a
God-given ability that all men have, although men must have an object of faith to exercise faith.
Even animals have faith.
Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Animals have faith, a sheep recognizes the voice of it's shepherd and will follow him, but they are afraid and flee from a stranger. This is faith, they trust their shepherd, but they mistrust strangers.
Paul does not once say a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe in Christ, not here in Romans, and not anywhere in scripture. You cannot show such a verse.
Paul simply says they must hear of Jesus to believe in him, and there must be a preacher so that they can hear. No mention of regeneration whatsoever.
Now you would think something so important would be directly stated in scripture, but it is not.
The fact is, you believe a person must have life before they have the ability to believe. This would be life before Christ, and life without Christ. You cannot get around this. This is false doctrine.
1 Jhn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Scripture is very clear, until you believe on Christ you do not have life. Verse 13 says this scripture is written so that folks who believe on Jesus can know they have life.
Yes, that is true.
I would like to say that without a work of God, nobody would EVER in a million years believe that Jesus (a man, and a Jew) who walked the earth 2000 years ago was actually God, creator of the universe, died to forgive sin, rose from the dead, and now is in heaven where He waits to return and judge the world.
That is simply impossible for the natural man to believe! It can only be believed by the Spirit of God causing one to believe it. Amen?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Next you will be claiming that animals have souls and can be saved. I can see it now; Winman and brother Grizzly!:laugh::laugh:
Winman, it appears that you do not understand Faith.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
God elects:
Ephesians 1:3-7 KJV
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God pays the penalty for the sins of the elect:
Isaiah 53:1-12
1. Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2. For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Romans 5:6, 8
6. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
God the Holy Spirit applies the Cross Work of Jesus Christ to the Elect and gives the Gift of Faith that they may believe:
John 3:3-8 KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Ephesians 2:1-10 KJV
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
And that is the typical false statement from you Winman.
It is pathetic! Winman, you apparently have no idea of what Jesus Christ accomplished on the Cross. I have said time and again that without Jesus Christ there is no life! After all these years you cannot be ignorant about what I believe! I have refuted the above statement by you several times in the last week or so. I hate to accuse a brother in Christ of deliberately lying but that is the only thing I can believe about you. I consider it blasphemous to say there is life outside of Jesus Christ!
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status