John 5:25-29??

[OldRegular]

Well, you did state regeneration (new life) leads to faith in Christ, right? Enough said. Life outside of Christ.

Hopefully one day you will understand but please don't hold your breath.

 

[Winman]

Winman,

You have not provided one passage of Scripture showing that faith or belief must precede the New Birth [i.e., Regeneration]?

I absolutely did, I showed John 1:12-13;

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This verse says to those persons who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to BECOME a son of God. This verse absolutely says faith precedes being born again, being made a son of God.

Verse 13 simply explains what "becoming" a son of God is, it is being born again, born again by the will and power of God.

It is God's will to give those that receive and believe on Jesus the power to be born again, to become a son of God. But a person has to receive Jesus and believe on his name before he receives this power from God. That is God's condition, he set the criteria of what a man must do to be saved.

Consider what Jesus Christ tells us about the new birth:

John 3:3-8, KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Consider what Jesus Christ tells us in this passage about the New Birth:

First, He says nothing about Faith being a prerequisite for the New Birth..

At this point in the conversation Jesus has not mentioned faith yet, but if you read just a few verses later he repeatedly says a person must believe to have life. You are pulling these verses out of context.

Second, He says that we do not understand the source or cause of the "New Birth". [

He simply compares the Spirit to the wind that blows where it will. We cannot see the wind, yet it exists. You may not receive this, but Jesus is speaking of the word of God, he says "thou hearest the sound thereof". Jesus is speaking of being born again by the word of God.

Winman did you know when you first believed?

I certainly do, I was saved when I was around 10 or 11 years old (don't remember the exact date) when I heard from scripture that I was a lost sinner, that the wages of sin is death, that Jesus died for my sins and rose again, and that if I believe on Jesus I would be saved. I prayed and asked Jesus to forgive my sins and come into my heart. I was saved that day around 48 years ago. I remember it clearly.

If not for the word of God I could not have been saved. If not for the word of God I could not have believed. No man can believe what he does not know.

I received life the moment I believed on Jesus. I was not spiritually alive before I believed in Jesus, I was dead in trangressions. I was made alive "with Christ" when I believed.

You teach a man is given life before he can even hear, understand, or believe the gospel. You believe a man has life without Christ. This is false doctrine.

1 Jhn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

No one has life until they have Christ. No man can have life before he believes on Jesus.

 

[OldRegular]

Jesus Christ the author and finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12:2, KJV
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

A most wonderful passage of Scripture!

Jesus Christ the the author and finisher of our faith.

1. He is the author of our faith, our Salvation because by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. [Hebrews 9:12]

2. He is the author of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, God the Father hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. [Ephesians 1:4]

3. He is the author of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, God the Father, having chosen us in Jesus Christ made alive we who were dead in trespasses and sins. [Ephesians 2:1, 5]

4. He is the author of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, God the Father hath made us accepted in the beloved and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. [Ephesians 1:6; 2:6]

5. He is the finisher of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, He sends us the Comforter that He may abide with you[us] for ever, who shall shall teach you[us] all things, and bring all things to your[our] remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you[us], who is the earnest of our inheritance [John 14:16, 26; Ephesians 1:14]

6. He is the finisher of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, He can say Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.[John 17:11]

7. He is the finisher of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. and we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [Romans 8:37; 1 Peter 3:5]

 

[OldRegular]

I absolutely did, I showed John 1:12-13;

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This verse says to those persons who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to BECOME a son of God. This verse absolutely says faith precedes being born again, being made a son of God.

You do not believe the Scripture you posted! [Where have I read that before?] The verse states Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They were born:


not of blood,

nor of the will of the flesh,

nor of the will of man,

but of God.

Read that again. Those in the Scripture were of God, not because of your will.

 

[OldRegular]

He simply compares the Spirit to the wind that blows where it will. We cannot see the wind, yet it exists. You may not receive this, but Jesus is speaking of the word of God, he says "thou hearest the sound thereof". Jesus is speaking of being born again by the word of God.

So now the wind is the Word of God.:laugh::laugh:

Jesus Christ states:

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So, Winman, the wind is the Word of God but we don't know where it comes from or where it is going!:laugh::laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Winman did you know when you first believed?

I certainly do, I was saved when I was around 10 or 11 years old (don't remember the exact date) when I heard from scripture that I was a lost sinner, that the wages of sin is death, that Jesus died for my sins and rose again, and that if I believe on Jesus I would be saved. I prayed and asked Jesus to forgive my sins and come into my heart. I was saved that day around 48 years ago. I remember it clearly.

Winman you know when you believed and presumably why you believed but Jesus Christ states that man cannot understand the New Birth!

 

[Iconoclast]

Hebrews 12:2, KJV
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

A most wonderful passage of Scripture!

Jesus Christ the the author and finisher of our faith.

1. He is the author of our faith, our Salvation because by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. [Hebrews 9:12]

2. He is the author of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, God the Father hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. [Ephesians 1:4]

3. He is the author of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, God the Father, having chosen us in Jesus Christ made alive we who were dead in trespasses and sins. [Ephesians 2:1, 5]

4. He is the author of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, God the Father hath made us accepted in the beloved and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. [Ephesians 1:6; 2:6]

5. He is the finisher of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, He sends us the Comforter that He may abide with you[us] for ever, who shall shall teach you[us] all things, and bring all things to your[our] remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you[us], who is the earnest of our inheritance [John 14:16, 26; Ephesians 1:14]

6. He is the finisher of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, He can say Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.[John 17:11]

7. He is the finisher of our faith, our Salvation because, having obtained eternal redemption for us by his own blood, we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. and we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [Romans 8:37; 1 Peter 3:5]

:applause::thumbs::applause::wavey: nice verses....very clear

 

[preacher4truth]

Brother P4T,

Where's the "rod of correction" for your fellow DoG'er at?

He does this a lot as well, but this is never brought up...........

Brother, with all love, there is nothing to give the rod of correction for, as there is absolutely no misuse of Scripture and proof texting going on as is the case of the OP.

Trust me, if there were, I'd be just as satisfied to expose fault there as well.

This is nothing against you as a person, I am simpy pointing out that the passage you use would not hold up in a real debate, or otherwise.

 

[webdog]

Hopefully one day you will understand but please don't hold your breath.

I understand. Maybe you should try believing the Bible when it says life is in christ.

 

[Winman]

So now the wind is the Word of God.:laugh::laugh:

Jesus Christ states:

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So, Winman, the wind is the Word of God but we don't know where it comes from or where it is going!:laugh::laugh:

I did not say the wind is the word of God, I said Jesus compared the Spirit to the wind. The wind is invisible, and so is the Spirit, but we can see it's effects. Jesus said a person can hear the wind, and we can hear the Spirit through the Word of God.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus said his words are spirit, and they are life. But you have to receive and believe his words to receive the Spirit and life.

Say what you will, Calvinism teaches that a person is alive apart from Christ. Some Calvinists go so far as to say that a person can be regenerated for years before they actually place faith in Christ. It is impossible for a person who has not believed on Christ to be spiritually alive in any form whatsoever, because until you believe you are condemned, you are dead in trespasses and sins.

It doesn't matter whether you believe a person can be regenerated for years, or only a few minutes, no person can be spiritually alive until they believe on Christ, as we are justified by faith.

I listed you half a dozen verses that all said a person must believe to have life. You cannot submit a single verse that says any person is alive before they believe.

If so, show it. Show even one verse that says a person has life before they believe.

I'll be waiting.

 

[Iconoclast]

I "sound like a punk?????" o.k. maybe I do...but I am also correct...why don't you engage the passages of Scripture?...

I just wanted to slow you down. Old Regular was not in need of my help, I can learn much from him.....it just seemed to me that rather than interact with him...you wanted to abuse him. I think you are better than that:thumbs:

you simply sound like a know-it-all-judgemental blow-hard....with zero original thoughts... possessing only the sheer ability to parrot what he has been ingesting in his regular brainwashing sessions and his "catechisms" for decades....so what? interract with the content of the Scriptures please....

Well you have it pegged:thumbs: I do not have that many original thoughts,and I seek to parrot what truth my brain has been washed with...and I will seek to continue to do so. I ask God to use what i have for His glory.You could not begin to refute any of the Catechisms and confessions that I "ingest":laugh:
I have never claimed any special gifting or knowledge. I have a unique situation where i get to listen to dozens of sermons a week,and have invested in many study books to help ....I offer those to people.
If people are too proud or lazy to welcome them...that is on them:thumbs:

HOS.....why would I want to have many "original thoughts" when there are more than enough of God's thoughts revealed in scripture???
What are your 3 best original thoughts???? show me what kind of thoughts I should have other than scriptural ones. My only regret is that i cannot retain more of the gifted thoughts that God has given to many teachers in church history. I am blessed by so many of these past teachers.

No one is accusing determininsts of being intellectually honest enough with themselves and others to admit it...the suggestion is that the logical consequences of what Calvinists teach is that Regeneration or "life" exists outside of Christ.

No...this is pathetic...no calvinist believes such nonsense...and quibbles about words.....Regeneration is life in Christ by Spirit Baptism being applied to the elect. this foolish idea suggested by webdog, and you, winman, has no basis in scripture....but you seek to fragment what God has joined together. The word for this...like it or not...is ignorance of divine truth.

Did you ever notice, that the Apostles used the word...saying...I would not have you be ignorant.....

I will interact with someones sincere questions...mostly by pointing them to a source of truth ...or parroting what I have heard by a more gifted person.

I can tell you this....if and when I offer a source which I know to be good,and I see people mocking or discounting it...That is when I know ignorance of divine truth is present,and i need to depart from such a feeble minded person...whose goal is only to be contentious and not to learn.
If that person is proud in spirit, or feeble minded in that they would despise God's teachers....I will just have to leave them to God.

why don't you engage the passages of Scripture?...

i do sometimes...by why listen to a parrot...lol

 

[convicted1]

Brother, with all love, there is nothing to give the rod of correction for, as there is absolutely no misuse of Scripture and proof texting going on as is the case of the OP.

Trust me, if there were, I'd be just as satisfied to expose fault there as well.

This is nothing against you as a person, I am simpy pointing out that the passage you use would not hold up in a real debate, or otherwise.

I know that it isn't personal. If I took everything thrown at me on here personally, I'd left a long time ago.

What I am trying to point out is this, Brother. The dead in "sins and trespasses", they will hear God when He calls them from the grave. They will answer that call. They answer that call without any enabling by the Spirit, too.

Now, I see the resurrection as spiritual in essence, and general. That when He comes, all the dead will come forth, the dead in Christ first, and then those who died in sins(Brother Old Regular would agree with me on this). In 1 Cor. 15, it states it is sown a physical body, and raised a spiritual body. Again, Brother OR would agree with me.

1 Cor. 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So, when God calls the "dead in sins and trespasses" out of their graves, they will get a spirtual body as well, but ours will be glorified. They hear this call w/o enablement by the Holy Ghost.

 

[convicted1]

The problem with "freewillers" is that they confuse Regeneration with the whole of Salvation. Regeneration or the "New Birth", the work of the Holy Spirit, is the initial event in Salvation. In Regeneration the person is given the gift of faith through which he/she will respond to the Gospel. Then follows, among others, Conversion, Justification, positional Sanctification, Perseverance, and in God's own time Glorification!

So, when someone is regenerated by the Spirit, and then gets "splatted" by a Mack truck, then I guess they would go to hell, huh?

In your belief system, I was regenerated for close to twenty years. God showed me a condemned sinner at around 15-16 one day riding home on a school bus, in the first seat behind the busdriver. God drawed me for years, Brother. I'd go to church for a while, then I'd be back in the same ole rut, running the bars, chasing the women, drinking the booze, cursing, using God's name in vain, and yet, through all of this, He kept drawing me. He kept showing me I needed Him, and when I would do something sinful, I'd feel it from the Spirit, and He was convicting me. Yet, I kept on my sinful ways, and enjoyed it to the hilt(not bragging, just being honest).On May 24th, 2007, He saved me, and placed me in Christ. So, if I had died in this "regenerated" state, if I would have died, I would have went to heaven or hell? Now, in this "regenerated" state, how was I in Christ and yet a fullblown sinner? One is a condemned sinner unless they are in Christ. How can we be in Chirst, if we are given the new birth, and in this new birth, we are given the abilty to believe only? We are given the ability to believe in Jesus(faith), and yet we must believe, and then we are placed in Christ.Y'all are putting steps in the salvation equation that aren't there.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Icon...while I can appreciate how you feel....You must understand something; You might just as easily hear dozens of sermons and teachings or even read dozens of catechisms that are NOT from a Calvinist perspective. Could you not? What then? I assure you, there are wise and godly and gifted men with excellent Biblical knowledge on any given side of that spectrum...What if you were to immerse yourself say, for a year or two in exclusively non-Calvinistic teaching? It is not adequate to say that you merely listen and learn etc... I don't imagine you regularly consider teachings by Ken Keathly or WLC....You can get countless hours of his stuff via pod-cast. You do not allow non-reformed teaching into your brain though do you? Ever listened to several weeks worth of Roger Olson? Weeks worth of A.W. Tozer? Having pre-concieved notions about what you should be learning and then "heaping to yourself teachers" who support your pre-existing philosophy is not very mind-expanding. (I do not mean to suggest "itching ears" I am simply making an analogy).

I Could very well begin to "refute" many of the teachings in your "catechisms" I simply could not do so to your satisfaction....I could produce atlernative catechisms which dispute some of the points contained in the catechisms you use. Would you claim that these alternative Statements or Catechisms, presumably written by equally educated and equally Godly men are incapale of "refuting" your Catechisms? I seem to get the vibe from you that YOU are more un-teachable than you often think non-Cals are....I go into conversations such as these with the thought that I might very well be mistaken about certain things....and that possibly, my Cal brethren might have insight that I could use....You I feel are simply "dyed-in-the-wool" Calvinist, and every time you post, you seem to feel it your responsibillity to "teach" this is not a board where we come to "teach" one another...We DEBATE alternative points of view and incidentally...we learn from one another....we are sharpened by one another. We hone our own skills.

I will say this though: If you honestly believe that those who are not of a Calvinist perspective are so...merely or even usually.. because of ignorance, or pride, or the remnants of corrupting sin or something...and that it is not a viable biblical option....Then these teachers of yours have failed you.....miserably....they have confused themselves and you. Non-Calvinists can just as easily suggest that there is self-aggrandizing prideful applications to Calvinist teachings as You would suggest....You know: "I am special because God chose me and not you" Ha ha ha kind of crap...But no one here will get away with it. Because that type of thinking is juvenile...the person who will call them on it BTW will be a non-Cal.

Do you pick and choose which teachers you use??? Of course you do, so you do far more than merely listen and learn do you not?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

No...this is pathetic...no calvinist believes such nonsense...and quibbles about words.....Regeneration is life in Christ by Spirit Baptism being applied to the elect. this foolish idea suggested by webdog, and you, winman, has no basis in scripture....but you seek to fragment what God has joined together. The word for this...like it or not...is ignorance of divine truth.

Of course you do not believe that it is the case...we KNOW that...do you not understand what is occurring when someone is conveying to you that the logical outcome of a system of belief necessarily implies a certain conclusion? If the conclusion is unacceptable...(this one is...) then either one or more of the premises you claim are false...or you must explain how the argument used is invalid. It is Reductive.

 

[Winman]

Of course you do not believe that it is the case...we KNOW that...do you not understand what is occurring when someone is conveying to you that the logical outcome of a system of belief necessarily implies a certain conclusion? If the conclusion is unacceptable...(this one is...) then either one or more of the premises you claim are false...or you must explain how the argument used is invalid. It is Reductive.

This is not some logical conclusion a person arrives at. Calvinists will directly tell you that a person is regenerated, made alive, born again by the Father before they are able to hear the gospel with understanding and believe on Christ. This would be life outside of Christ.

Calvinists do not believe a person obtains life by believing on Jesus, they believe a person obtains life when they are regenerated by the Father. Believing in Jesus occurs afterward in their view, after they have been regenerated and made able to hear and understand and given faith to believe the gospel.

They love to quote John 3:3 and say this verse is speaking of having spiritual understanding.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God

Calvinists will claim unless a person is regenerated, they cannot "see" or understand the gospel. A person must be given ears to hear, and eyes to see they say.

Jesus said unless a person believes they shall not "see" life.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Some Calvinists may have not realized that Calvinism teaches a person has life outside Christ, but it does. Some Calvinists teach a person can walk around for years regenerated, spiritually alive, and yet never having believed on Christ. This is life outside of Jesus and is utterly false doctrine.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Some Calvinists may have not realized that Calvinism teaches a person has life outside Christ, but it does. Some Calvinists teach a person can walk around for years regenerated, spiritually alive, and yet never having believed on Christ. This is life outside of Jesus and is utterly false doctrine.

We are saying the same thing two different ways.....Icon refuses to accept that this is a perfectly logical outcome of Calvinist teaching....He does not believe that this is the case....What I am suggesting is that the above is a perfectly logical implication of Calvinist dogma

 

[OldRegular]

Some Calvinists may have not realized that Calvinism teaches a person has life outside Christ, but it does. Some Calvinists teach a person can walk around for years regenerated, spiritually alive, and yet never having believed on Christ. This is life outside of Jesus and is utterly false doctrine.

Winman if you know such a person you need to share the Gospel with them so they can exercise their God given faith and believe!

 

[OldRegular]

For all those kind souls on this Forum who are so concerned about those who believe that Salvation is all of God I present the following incident in the life of that great Baptist missionary, the Apostle Paul.

Acts 13:43-49, KJV
43. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46* Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49. And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

To further allay their concern, doubts, suspicions? I present another word from God through that great Baptist missionary, the Apostle Paul. [And these people claim that those who believe the Doctrines of Grace are anti missionary. For shame!]

Philippians 1:6, KJV Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

To further allay their very deep concerns about those who believe that Salvation is all of God I present the following revelation from God through that great Baptist Prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 55:11, KJV So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Not leaving us in doubt about His word God uses that great Baptist Apostle John the Beloved to tell us:

John 1:1-5, 14, KJV
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And what does the Living Word tell us:

John 3:3-8, KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Praise God, He has done all that is needed in the Salvation of His elect.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

For all those kind souls on this Forum who are so concerned about those who believe that Salvation is all of God I present the following incident in the life of that great Baptist missionary, the Apostle Paul.

We all believe that salvation is "all of God" If one does not....their Salvation is questionable.

48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I, a non-Cal for one, understand and take this verse very seriously and have no issues with it....but it is not as though one has to have a Calvinist point of view to believe this. It says precisely what it means and it means precisely what it says...but it also says no more than what it says.

[And these people claim that those who believe the Doctrines of Grace are anti missionary. For shame!]

I have not seen except one (I think) claim recently that this is the case: Incidentally, I saw numerous non-Cals call him on it: myself included. If I remember correctly: few if-any: are regularly making this claim. You may feel like David, but you are defeating a Giant who either does not exist, or who is 2 feet tall.

Philippians 1:6, KJV Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

O.K:....a verse about Sanctification...I do not see how this applies to what you were stating about missions: Your verse in Isaiah (not very strong for this argument either) might even have been better to "prove" the point which, basically, everyone already agrees with.

Not leaving us in doubt about His word God uses that great Baptist Apostle John the Beloved to tell us:

John 1:1-5, 14, KJV
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I did not know that anyone was disputing either God's having created the world through his Son Jesus or that Jesus was not the "living Word" and the "word become flesh" If they are: LEMME AT EM' How about we take those heretics out together.

Praise God, He has done all that is needed in the Salvation of His elect.

He has: but I still wonder why you will not post the rest of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus: Does the Living Word not deserve to be heard? Why don't you tell us the rest of the passage? Does it say something you don't want us to read? What are you hiding? "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" said the wizard of OZ.

Paul and John were indeed Baptists: Thank you for including that :thumbs: