John 5:25-29??

[Winman]

You are needlessly confusing yourself by comparing the general resurrection of all the dead in Verses 28, 28 with Verse 25. Note what verse 25 says:

John 5:25, KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus Christ states first: the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God

He states next: and they that hear shall live.

Ask yourself: "convicted1, am I confused or is Jesus Christ ? If Jesus Christ states the dead, apparently inclusive, hear the voice of the Son of God how can He then say and they that hear shall live. Does that mean some do not listen?"

In verse 25 it indeed means some will not listen. This is not speaking of persons in the grave, but living people who are spiritually dead.

Verse 28 is very different, it is speaking of persons who are physically dead in the grave. In this verse it says ALL that are in the graves shall hear.

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

So, verse 25 and verse 28 are very different. Verse 25 is speaking of living persons, though they are spiritually dead. They can hear the voice of the Son of God, and those that hear (believe) shall live. Those that refuse to hear shall not live.

Verse 28 is speaking of physically dead persons in the grave, both those who are spiritually alive when they died, and those that were spiritually dead when they died. This verse says ALL that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God.

Verse 25 is speaking of hearing to life, verse 28 is speaking of rising out of the grave. Verse 25 is being born again, verse 28 is the resurrection.

Fact is, in both verses 25 and 28 it is shown that THE DEAD (spiritually dead) can hear the voice of Jesus.

 

[convicted1]

I love how those who don't actually address the spiritually dead being able to hear (or not hear) in a spiritual sense just flippitantly dismiss it while attempting to appeal to "debate practices"...and then subsequently brush it under the rug under the guise of it not dealing with salvation, hence no need in having to actually deal with it...which was never Willis' intent in starting this thread to begin with.

Willis, am I correct in my assessment?

To quote Dave Hester from Storage Wars, "Yuuuuuuup!!"

 

[convicted1]

In verse 25 it indeed means some will not listen. This is not speaking of persons in the grave, but living people who are spiritually dead.

Verse 28 is very different, it is speaking of persons who are physically dead in the grave. In this verse it says ALL that are in the graves shall hear.

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

So, verse 25 and verse 28 are very different. Verse 25 is speaking of living persons, though they are spiritually dead. They can hear the voice of the Son of God, and those that hear (believe) shall live. Those that refuse to hear shall not live.

Verse 28 is speaking of physically dead persons in the grave, both those who are spiritually alive when they died, and those that were spiritually dead when they died. This verse says ALL that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God.

Verse 25 is speaking of hearing to life, verse 28 is speaking of rising out of the grave. Verse 25 is being born again, verse 28 is the resurrection.

Fact is, in both verses 25 and 28 it is shown that THE DEAD (spiritually dead) can hear the voice of Jesus.

:applause::applause::applause::applause:


You stated this better than I did in the OP. Hearing God IS hearing God. It's been bandied around how no one can hear God unless they first be quickened, and yet, the dead(all) shall hear when they come forth from their graves.

 

[Winman]

:applause::applause::applause::applause:


You stated this better than I did in the OP. Hearing God IS hearing God. It's been bandied around how no one can hear God unless they first be quickened, and yet, the dead(all) shall hear when they come forth from their graves.

Yes Willis. The greatest error of Calvinism is that it teaches a person has life without Jesus. In Calvinism, a person does not obtain life by believing on Jesus, Jesus is cut out of the picture. They teach that the Father gives you life without Jesus. Oh, they will then include Jesus, but after you have already been made spiritually alive and born again, meeting the requirement to see heaven they so often argue.

If God regenerates a man before conversion, then for that brief moment of time it takes the regenerate man to hear, understand, and believe the gospel you have a born again person who is still dead in trespasses and sins! This is absolutely impossible.

Some Calvinists teach that a person can be regenerated or born again for years and even decades before they believe on Jesus. This would be a person who is spiritually alive, born again for years, and at the very same time is dead in sins! Absurd!

Calvinism is a mess, it is illogical and utterly against all scripture. All scripture says you must believe to have life.

 

[OldRegular]

In Calvinism, a person does not obtain life by believing on Jesus, Jesus is cut out of the picture. They teach that the Father gives you life without Jesus.

Winman

You are either abysmally ignorant of the Doctrine of Grace or the above is a flat out lie. The following Scripture prove what I say is true.

Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God the Father blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

God the Father chose us in him [Jesus Christ] before the foundation of the world.

God the Father predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ

God the Father made us accepted in the beloved [Jesus Christ].

Ephesians 2:4-6, NASB
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,

God the Father made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,

No Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ, No life! No God the Father, no life! No Grace, No life! Can you understand this Winman.

Furthermore, Winman, in my post #57 I show that faith is an integral part of Salvation. That post is actually a response to your continued mantra

In Calvinism, a person does not obtain life by believing on Jesus, Jesus is cut out of the picture. They teach that the Father gives you life without Jesus.

 

[Winman]

Winman

You are either abysmally ignorant of the Doctrine of Grace or the above is a flat out lie. The following Scripture prove what I say is true.

Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God the Father blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

God the Father chose us in him [Jesus Christ] before the foundation of the world.

God the Father predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ

God the Father made us accepted in the beloved [Jesus Christ].

Ephesians 2:4-6, NASB
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,

God the Father made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,

No Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ, No life! No God the Father, no life! No Grace, No life! Can you understand this Winman.

Furthermore, Winman, in my post #57 I show that faith is an integral part of Salvation. That post is actually a response to your continued mantra

You can say whatever you want, Calvinism teaches that God gives life to a person before they believe on Jesus. Calvinism teaches that a person cannot possibly believe on Jesus unless God has first given them life. It is not Jesus that saves you in Calvinism, for unless God elected you and regenerated you, you could not possibly believe on Christ.

And as I wrote before, many Calvinists claim a person can be born again for years, even decades before they actually believe on Jesus. This would be a born again, spiritually alive person who is dead in all their trespasses and sins for years!

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name

The scriptures teach that no man has life until he believes on Jesus Christ. Calvinism is false doctrine.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

You are either abysmally ignorant of the Doctrine of Grace or the above is a flat out lie. The following Scripture prove what I say is true.

Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God the Father blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

God the Father chose us in him [Jesus Christ] before the foundation of the world.

God the Father predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ

God the Father made us accepted in the beloved [Jesus Christ].

Ephesians 2:4-6, NASB
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,

God the Father made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,

No Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ, No life! No God the Father, no life! No Grace, No life! Can you understand this Winman.

Furthermore, Winman, in my post #57 I show that faith is an integral part of Salvation. That post is actually a response to your continued mantra

:thumbs::wavey::applause::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

:thumbs::wavey::applause::thumbs:

Brother P4T,

Where's the "rod of correction" for your fellow DoG'er at?

He does this a lot as well, but this is never brought up...........

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother P4T,

Where's the "rod of correction" for your fellow DoG'er at?

He does this a lot as well, but this is never brought up...........

Yes Willis...I do this when the poster is correct...not in error:laugh::wavey:

Willis...did you answer post 26 in the other thread??

 

[Iconoclast]

Actually, I responded...and quite convincingly, you (and the Sidekick) presented NO argument to my subsequent responses (22, 38, 40, 41) except just repeating the same word "savingly" (sic) over again as that is enough to put an end to this :laugh:

No...i think you have not aknowledged the difference the word savingly makes. Then you say you followed the thread,and yet you see no one saying it is just a physical hearing they are speaking of. I think you are not reading it correctly.Willis appeals to the dead in the graves hearing the caLL TO RESURRECTION which has not hing to do with savingly hearing the gospel.

 

[Iconoclast]

I've been following this thread, and that is your strawman. Nobody is talking about physical hearing.

Not too helpful if you set limits of having to listen to an hour sermon before discussing it.

The nature of the teaching needs for someone to hear it,in order to comment,how are you going to comment without knowing what to comment on???

This is not about physical hearing! How does he spiritually reject the words, if he SPIRITUALLY cannot hear? That's pure double talk bunk.

Webdog...an unsaved person does not have the Holy Spirit.
the Holy Spirit reveals Spiritual truth......

An unsaved person...can only hear the physical words....there will be no effect...because his spirit ....IS DEAD:thumbs::wavey: a corpse...

 

[convicted1]

Webdog...an unsaved person does not have the Holy Spirit.
the Holy Spirit reveals Spiritual truth......

An unsaved person...can only hear the physical words....there will be no effect...because his spirit ....IS DEAD:thumbs::wavey: a corpse...

And no one has the Holy Ghost prior to being saved either. :thumbs::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Webdog...an unsaved person does not have the Holy Spirit.
the Holy Spirit reveals Spiritual truth......

An unsaved person...can only hear the physical words....there will be no effect...because his spirit ....IS DEAD:thumbs::wavey: a corpse...

Okay Brother, I asked this post to a Brother in another thread, that goes hand-in-hand with what you posted here:

1.) Adam and Eve were both spiritually dead when God searched them out in the Garden, correct? How were they able to commune with Him in their "dead in sins and trespasses" state? Remember, God drove them from the Garden, "Lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live." God spoke with them, and they spoke back, and them spiritually dead.

2.) How was Cain able to speak with God when God asked him where was his brother Abel? Cain even communed with Him, and he was also, "dead in sins and trespasses". God went so far as to place a seal upon him to protect him, and he was "dead in sins and trespasses".

3.) How was the rich man in hell able to speak with Father Abraham, and him spiritually, AND physically dead? How was Father Abraham able to speak with a "corpse" that had/has no chance of ever being quickened, and yet Father Abraham communned with him?

4.) How was a spiritually dead soul able to "feel the flames", and him being dead? How was he desirious of one drop of water(shows you that a "corpse" can, and does, thirst), and him a corpse?

5.) And lastly, how can a spiritually dead soul even sin? It's in a "dead state", and it can do nothing. If it can do nothing, then it can't even sin. Sure, in your system, it's a condemned sinner, but it can't sin anymore.

Now, in all of these question posed, the person(s) in question were unregenerated, and yet God communed with them. Please try to explain how these "corpses" spoke with God Almighty, and them "dead in sins and trespasses".

 

[Iconoclast]

Okay Brother, I asked this post to a Brother in another thread, that goes hand-in-hand with what you posted here:




Now, in all of these question posed, the person(s) in question were unregenerated, and yet God communed with them. Please try to explain how these "corpses" spoke with God Almighty, and them "dead in sins and trespasses".

Willis,

I speak with dead men walking everyday.....it is called the truckstop:wavey:
yesterday spoke with two dead men from saudi arabia ..in a truckstop....
in the other thread...I posted a message...where it is explained very nicely...

I also explained that they need the Spirit....then they would not be dead...
who says dead men cannot speak??? God spoke to them......communion is for believers, not un believers

 

[convicted1]

Willis,

I speak with dead men walking everyday.....it is called the truckstop:wavey:
yesterday spoke with two dead men from saudi arabia ..in a truckstop....
in the other thread...I posted a message...where it is explained very nicely...

I also explained that they need the Spirit....then they would not be dead...
who says dead men cannot speak??? God spoke to them......communion is for believers, not un believers

God spoke with them, and yet they were dead. They were dead "corpses", and yet they spoke with God. How then were these "corpses" which can do nothing, BTW, able to commune with Almighty God?

Cain was dead spiritually, and he spoke with God. God went so far as to place a seal upon him. Explain how a "corpse", that can do nothing, and yet when that "corpse" spoke, God place a seal upon him. Again, please explain how a "corpse" was able to get a seal placed upon him when God spoke with him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

John 25-29

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Verses 25-26 and vs 27-29 are speaking of two different events.
The first is the time that 'Now is,' the Gospel age inaugurated by the Lord Jesus Christ when the Gospel (Mark 1:15) is to be preached to 'every creature under heaven.' Those who hear the Gospel and receive it savingly will 'live,' that is. have eternal life. However, dead men do not hear by themselves (Rom 3:11ff). Christ has life in Himself and gives that life to whomever He wills. Do please pause here and read Matt 11:25-27.

Verses 27-29 refer to the Return of Christ and the Resurrection. Yes, on that day ALL men will hear the word of God and rise to judgement.

Steve

 

[Winman]

Old Regular quoted Ephesians from the NASB, but he does not believe what it says.

Ephesians 2:4-6, NASB
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,

This verse says that even when we were spiritually dead in our transgressions, we have been made alive together with Christ.

Old Regular doesn't believe that, and neither do any Calvinists. Calvinists believe a person is quickened or made alive before their sins are forgiven, and they are made alive without Christ.

The scriptures say you are dead in transgressions until you are joined together with Christ. It says we are made ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST.

No one is joined to Christ until they believe on him. No one is forgiven their sins until they believe, we are justified by faith.

Calvinism says this;

Regenerated, made alive (no Christ) ----> Hears ----> Understands ----> Believes on Jesus (joined with Christ)/ Sins forgiven

The scriptures teach;

Hears ----> Understands ----> Believes on Jesus (joined with Christ)/Sins forgiven ----> Regenerated, made alive WITH Christ

Some Calvinists teach a person can be regenerated for years before they believe on Jesus. Until you believe on Jesus your sins are not forgiven and you are still dead in transgressions. So, they teach a person is spiritually alive for years, and yet is still dead in their transgressions at the very same time.

Calvinists do not believe we are made alive with Christ, they believe a person is made alive by the Father without Christ. Then after being made alive by the Father they have the ability to hear, understand, and believe on Jesus at some later time. It may be just moments later that they believe on Jesus, or perhaps years, but they believe you are already alive before you believe and your sins are forgiven.

Calvinism is false doctrine, they do not believe what Ephesians 2:5 says.

 

[convicted1]

Verses 25-26 and vs 27-29 are speaking of two different events.
The first is the time that 'Now is,' the Gospel age inaugurated by the Lord Jesus Christ when the Gospel (Mark 1:15) is to be preached to 'every creature under heaven.' Those who hear the Gospel and receive it savingly will 'live,' that is. have eternal life. However, dead men do not hear by themselves (Rom 3:11ff). Christ has life in Himself and gives that life to whomever He wills. Do please pause here and read Matt 11:25-27.

Verses 27-29 refer to the Return of Christ and the Resurrection. Yes, on that day ALL men will hear the word of God and rise to judgement.

Steve

This is precisely what I am getting at. Why can they hear, being unregenerated lying in their graves(w/o the Holy Ghost's enabling them), but not so while alive on planet earth. God's call IS God's call, whether He is calling them while alive or from the dead.

 

[AresMan]

This is precisely what I am getting at. Why can they hear, being unregenerated lying in their graves(w/o the Holy Ghost's enabling them), but not so while alive on planet earth. God's call IS God's call, whether He is calling them while alive or from the dead.

Does anyone successfully resist God's call at the last day?

 

[convicted1]

Does anyone successfully resist God's call at the last day?

Nope. The dead in "sins and trespasses and sins" don't and they weren't "enabled" by the Holy Ghost, either.