John 5:25-29??

[preacher4truth]

John 25-29

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Now, I hear the other side of the debate and how the spiritually dead can not hear God unto they are "quickened"/"made alive"/"regenerated", and then, and only then, can they hear. Now, how do you explain that those who are resurrected to the resurrection of damnation are able to hear God when He calls them from their graves? Remember, millions, and probably billions will have been in the ground for centuries, and their physical bodies have probably mouldered back to the dust. So please explain this, that those who are spiritually dead are able to hear God and yet they are resurrected to be cast into the "second death", where, death, hell, satan and his minions will be cast too.

I posted this in the "faith a reuquiremnt?" thread, and I guess they missed it?

Brother, part of the problem here with your using the underlined/red portion is the fact that this is not referring to a soteriological call, but a call to final judgment.

A completely different topic.

Thus it falls short of a good proof text in support of your theory.

I believe God must quicken those who are saved. But you are already aware of this being my belief. :love2: :wavey:

 

[Amy.G]

Brother, part of the problem here with your using the underlined/red portion is the fact that this is not referring to a soteriological call, but a call to final judgment.

That's what I said! Nobody listens to me. :tear:

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[preacher4truth]

That's what I said! Nobody listens to me. :tear:

:smilewinkgrin:

Did not! :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

Did not! :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

Did too!!!! You just can't read!

Did I say thaaaat? LOL

 

[preacher4truth]

Did too!!!! You just can't read!

Did I say thaaaat? LOL

No, but you sure typed it! Where's that 'report' button!!! :tear::laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Whoa boy, whoa!! :laugh:

Yall state all the time the natural man can not hear God, and yet that same natural man will hear God when He calls him/her from the grave. Yall state that they dead soul can't hear God, and yet Adam and Eve, Cain, the rich man, et al heard Him plainly(in the rich man's case, he spoke with Abraham).

You have lessened God's power. I state that it's powerful enough to communicate with the spiritually dead, and you say that the soul must be made alive, and then, and only then, can it hear God when He speaks.

Yall state all the time the natural man can not hear God

Willis...if you keep leaving out important words...you will never get it...

here is what I said....

Originally Posted by Iconoclast
exactly Willis....the natural man cannot hear savingly...he rejects it everytime.....the passage says he that has the Spirit...CAN freely receive what God gives to believers nice and easy...right!!

See Willis....savingly......

 

[Winman]

Being "dead in trespasses and sins" is different from being "dead from physical life." The "in trespasses and sin" is the modifier to explain what "type" of dead is being discussed.

If one is physically dead, one cannot do that which characterizes someone who is physically alive without the miracle of a resurrection coming from an ontologically distinct being.

If one is (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sins, the implication is that one in this state cannot do that which characterizes someone who is (spiritually) alive and freed from trespasses and sin.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Only God has the power to raise the dead: both the physically dead and the dead in trespasses and sins.

This is where Calvinism has an impossible problem. A person is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins until they believe and their sins are forgiven.

So how did they hear and understand the gospel before they believed? You have to hear the gospel and understand it before you can believe it, but you are not spiritually alive until you believe it.

The Philipian jailer is a good example that refutes Calvinism. He desired to be saved, he was willing to listen to Paul and Silas, but he was still spiritually dead in sins. He had not believed yet, he did not even know he had to believe until Paul told him. And he did not know what to believe until he took Paul home and heard the gospel. And he had to understand the gospel to believe it.

The Philipian jailer was spiritually dead until he believed and his sins were forgiven, yet he desired to hear the gospel before he believed, and he understood the gospel before he believed.

So, Calvinism presents an impossible contradiction. They claim a man is spiritually alive before he believes and his sins are forgiven. This is impossible.

 

[webdog]

:type:exactly Willis....the natural man cannot hear savingly...he rejects it everytime.....the passage says he that has the Spirit...CAN freely receive what God gives to believers:wavey: nice and easy...right!!

1. If he can't hear, what is there to reject? He can't reject something he can't hear. If you were in a soundproof room and someone gave you a command you would not be able to reject the command. Nice and easy...right?!

2. If you are a believer, you are already saved. Giving salvation to believers makes no sense.

 

[webdog]

That's what I said! Nobody listens to me. :tear:

:smilewinkgrin:

actually the type of call is irrelevant if spoken to a corpse, no?

 

[Amy.G]

actually the type of call is irrelevant if spoken to a corpse, no?

It's quite relevant because in this particular verse Jesus is speaking about the final judgment and they WILL rise when He says so.

 

[webdog]

It's quite relevant because in this particular verse Jesus is speaking about the final judgment and they WILL rise when He says so.

Which further supports Willis' point the spiritually dead can and do respond apart from regeneration.

Willis, check and mate

 

[Winman]

1. If he can't hear, what is there to reject? He can't reject something he can't hear. If you were in a soundproof room and someone gave you a command you would not be able to reject the command. Nice and easy...right?!

2. If you are a believer, you are already saved. Giving salvation to believers makes no sense.

Yes, Calvinism is absurd. It teaches you must be made alive so you can believe to have life.

Why would someone who is already spiritually alive need to believe on Jesus? They are already alive, they are already born again, so why do they need to believe?

And this is what is so wrong about Calvinism, it does not teach that you are made alive when you believe on Jesus, it teaches you are made alive without Jesus. Oh, they throw Jesus in there, but only after you already have life.

 

[webdog]

We also see from IC's post a clear contradiction. He states those in hell (unregenerated) can and do understand the doctrines of grace. Were they regenerated before being cast into the Lake of Fire?

 

[Amy.G]

Which further supports Willis' point the spiritually dead can and do respond apart from regeneration.

Willis, check and mate

No it doesn't. Jesus isn't calling them to salvation.

 

[Winman]

We also see from IC's post a clear contradiction. He states those in hell (unregenerated) can and do understand the doctrines of grace. Were they regenerated before being cast into the Lake of Fire?

It's all a bunch of double-talk.

 

[Amy.G]

We also see from IC's post a clear contradiction. He states those in hell (unregenerated) can and do understand the doctrines of grace. Were they regenerated before being cast into the Lake of Fire?

Are you asking if they were born again before being cast into the lake of fire?

 

[webdog]

No it doesn't. Jesus isn't calling them to salvation.

We are going in circles. Its irrelevant. I've been hearing from your side for 7 years corpses can do nothing, period. If the spiritually dead can respond to ANYTHING it refutes the entire argument regeneration is required to both hear and respond. JBH I believe has even embraced this fact.

 

[Winman]

No it doesn't. Jesus isn't calling them to salvation.

Amy, does Calvinism teach you obtain life by believing on Jesus? No, they teach you are made alive without Jesus. They teach that God regenerates you and makes you spiritually alive before you can hear, understand, and believe the gospel. You already have life without Jesus. They are cutting Jesus completely out of the picture, making him secondary.

They separate having life from being saved, which is ridiculous. If you have life you are already saved and would not need to believe on Jesus.

Why do you need to believe on Jesus to have life if you already have life?

If you cannot see how serious a problem this is, I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[webdog]

Are you asking if they were born again before being cast into the lake of fire?

Wouldn't they have to be in order to understand salvation as the rich man did (which IC also stated)?

God won't regenerate a person to respond to his call on earth...but he will allow them to "hear" once he punishes them? That is justice...how?

 

[webdog]

Willis, do you mind if i throw the verse in my signature into the mix? (Isaiah 1:18)

Since Amy, IC and The Sidekick want to separate spiritual inability into salvation/non salvation categories, how does this verse apply? God clearly "reasoning" with the unregenerate...salvifically.