www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1842905&postcount=93
^this post on another thread also applies nicely here...
^this post on another thread also applies nicely here...
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John 5:25-29??
- Thread starter convicted1
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Isn't being dead in trespass and sins the same thing as being under the law as in Gal. 3:23 which would also put in the position of being as stated in verse 22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin", therefore subject to in Adam all die. However the elect have been given the promise of the Holy Spirit removing them from under the law to under grace. Therefore they, the elect, even though they die yet shall they live by the resurrection unto life.
All were/are dead in trespass and sin just some have been translated and others haven't.
Question for all.
Made spiritual alive; What does that mean?
This is a question; I assume it means we have been given the promise of the Holy Spirit?
Does that quicken us, or does it quicken us with Christ, meaning Christ was the one quickened and we are put in a covenant relationship, in Christ.
As it is Jesus who is said to be the firstborn from the dead, rather than we being born again aren't we in reality, by the Holy Spirit, begotten again unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
By being begotten we are children but will we be truly born until the appearing of Jesus, the earnest expectation of the manifestation of the sons of God?
Made spiritual alive; What does that mean?
This is a question; I assume it means we have been given the promise of the Holy Spirit?
Does that quicken us, or does it quicken us with Christ, meaning Christ was the one quickened and we are put in a covenant relationship, in Christ.
As it is Jesus who is said to be the firstborn from the dead, rather than we being born again aren't we in reality, by the Holy Spirit, begotten again unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
By being begotten we are children but will we be truly born until the appearing of Jesus, the earnest expectation of the manifestation of the sons of God?
convicted1
Guest
Which further supports Willis' point the spiritually dead can and do respond apart from regeneration.
Willis, check and mate
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
convicted1
Guest
1. If he can't hear, what is there to reject? He can't reject something he can't hear. If you were in a soundproof room and someone gave you a command you would not be able to reject the command. Nice and easy...right?!
2. If you are a believer, you are already saved. Giving salvation to believers makes no sense.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
1. If he can't hear, what is there to reject? He can't reject something he can't hear. If you were in a soundproof room and someone gave you a command you would not be able to reject the command. Nice and easy...right?!
2. If you are a believer, you are already saved. Giving salvation to believers makes no sense.
You have not followed the thread... I just explained to Willis....he cannot hear SAVINGLY......IT IS NOT PHYSICAL HEARING......iT IS OF THE SPIRIT.
I will start another thread...on Spiritual hearing....It might be helpful here
The unsaved reject the truth of God...He physically hears the words....but cannot "hear"spiritually....yes....nice and easy!!!!!
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Which further supports Willis' point the spiritually dead can and do respond apart from regeneration.
Willis, check and mate
Dead wrong.....thats why they go into second death...there is no saving response......no matter how you try and twist it.....:thumbs::wavey::thumbs:
CHECKMATE.....happened in post 26....when Willis did not respond:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:.....and you repeated his error...
preacher4truth
Active Member
Amazingly, when the OP is shown to be used completely out of context and misapplied, there is never an answer for this misuse, and at least three persons have pointed this out.
Instead of admittance, there are multiple thumbs up for those who also choose to take the road of fallacious doctrine based upon deficient usage of Scripture.
In other words truth is avoided altogether. I'm surprised at Willis over this.
Wow.
psalms109:31
Active Member
John 5 :
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
The verse before 25 talk about that those who are dead and believe will be made alive and not face the judgement and then he goes on to confirm this by those who face judgement will hear to who are dead. In other words you have no excuse not to believe.The Father only gives to the Son who not only listens but learns from the Father. The words of Jesus is Spirit and life and it is not His own but the Father who sent Him. So eat and drink of Christ alone and you will be full, satisfied and alive though you die in Him.
Romans 6 :
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
There is nothing wrong with the words of Spirit and life pointing out you are dead, but you can be made alive in Christ. When He calls come don't let men tell you can't because you are dead there is nothing wrong with being dead in sin we all are, there is something wrong not coming to Christ to live
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
The verse before 25 talk about that those who are dead and believe will be made alive and not face the judgement and then he goes on to confirm this by those who face judgement will hear to who are dead. In other words you have no excuse not to believe.The Father only gives to the Son who not only listens but learns from the Father. The words of Jesus is Spirit and life and it is not His own but the Father who sent Him. So eat and drink of Christ alone and you will be full, satisfied and alive though you die in Him.
Romans 6 :
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
There is nothing wrong with the words of Spirit and life pointing out you are dead, but you can be made alive in Christ. When He calls come don't let men tell you can't because you are dead there is nothing wrong with being dead in sin we all are, there is something wrong not coming to Christ to live
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Actually, I responded...and quite convincingly, you (and the Sidekick) presented NO argument to my subsequent responses (22, 38, 40, 41) except just repeating the same word "savingly" (sic) over again as that is enough to put an end to this :laugh:
I've been following this thread, and that is your strawman. Nobody is talking about physical hearing.
Not too helpful if you set limits of having to listen to an hour sermon before discussing it.
This is not about physical hearing! How does he spiritually reject the words, if he SPIRITUALLY cannot hear? That's pure double talk bunk.
gators_2006
New Member
John 25-29
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now, I hear the other side of the debate and how the spiritually dead can not hear God unto they are "quickened"/"made alive"/"regenerated", and then, and only then, can they hear. Now, how do you explain that those who are resurrected to the resurrection of damnation are able to hear God when He calls them from their graves? Remember, millions, and probably billions will have been in the ground for centuries, and their physical bodies have probably mouldered back to the dust. So please explain this, that those who are spiritually dead are able to hear God and yet they are resurrected to be cast into the "second death", where, death, hell, satan and his minions will be cast too.
I posted this in the "faith a reuquiremnt?" thread, and I guess they missed it?
I'm going to try and jump in hear and put in my two cents worth. I'm looking at just the questions that were asked by the OP as far as those dead in the grave for centuries.
I think the key word in all this is "resurrected". A person who has been resurrected has a new body. Not a physical body as what we would think of as in the flesh. I think Paul doe s a good job explaining this in 1 Corinthians 15 starting at 35.
35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?” 36 What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38 Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39 Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
45 The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.”[h] But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
The questioned asked by the OP I took as how, if the physical body is dead and has wasted away, will the dead be able to hear. No matter if the person will be part of the resurrection of life or the resurrection of damnation, the physical body is not immortal and must be changed so that it can be immortal as Paul describes. Raising of the dead and resurrection of the dead are two different things and I think people think that resurrection of the dead and raising of the dead are one and the same when they are not. Raising is just that, raising, no transformation, just bringing back what is already there. Like with Lazarus. He was raised, not resurrected.
I know this hasn't been much of what has been discussed in this thread, but just my opinion on what I thought was asked.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are needlessly confusing yourself by comparing the general resurrection of all the dead in Verses 28, 28 with Verse 25. Note what verse 25 says:
John 5:25, KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jesus Christ states first: the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God
He states next: and they that hear shall live.
Ask yourself: "convicted1, am I confused or is Jesus Christ
? If Jesus Christ states the dead, apparently inclusive, hear the voice of the Son of God how can He then say and they that hear shall live. Does that mean some do not listen?"OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Some people keep asking the question: Why do you need to believe on Jesus to have life if you already have life?, i.e, been regenerated. A simple answer would be: "Because the Bible tells you to do so."
I have given my view of regeneration and conversion in the past as follows:
REGENERATION
The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. [Ephesians 2:1-8] Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.
Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, came to Jesus Christ by night to question Him.
John 3:3, KJV
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God..
Various forms of expression are employed in the Scriptures, to denote the change that occurs at the new birth or regeneration:
It is taking away the heart of stone, and giving a heart of flesh, a new heart.
Ezekiel 36:26, KJV
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh..
It is putting the law in the heart.
Hebrews 8:10, KJV
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:.
It is quickening or making alive.
John 6:63, KJV
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life..
John 5:21, KJV
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will..
It is a resurrection from the spiritual death.
John 5:25, KJV
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live..
CONVERSION
Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the ‘effectual call’ and turns to God in faith and repentance. In conversion the regenerate man exercizes the gift of faith bestowed upon regeneration. Regeneration must precede conversion since Scripture tells us: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Corinthians 2:14] It is important to realize that conversion is a personal experience of a regenerate person with Holy God. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience. God saves people one at a time! Jesus Christ explains conversion in the following manner:
John 3:16, KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life..
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In the sermon by Spurgeon "All of Grace" I find the following insightful statement. Section 13, http://www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm
Some truths which it is hard to explain in words are simple enough in actual experience. There is no discrepancy between the truth that the sinner believes, and that his faith is wrought in him by the Holy Spirit.
I have given my view of regeneration and conversion in the past as follows:
REGENERATION
The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. [Ephesians 2:1-8] Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.
Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, came to Jesus Christ by night to question Him.
John 3:3, KJV
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God..
Various forms of expression are employed in the Scriptures, to denote the change that occurs at the new birth or regeneration:
It is taking away the heart of stone, and giving a heart of flesh, a new heart.
Ezekiel 36:26, KJV
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh..
It is putting the law in the heart.
Hebrews 8:10, KJV
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:.
It is quickening or making alive.
John 6:63, KJV
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life..
John 5:21, KJV
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will..
It is a resurrection from the spiritual death.
John 5:25, KJV
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live..
CONVERSION
Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the ‘effectual call’ and turns to God in faith and repentance. In conversion the regenerate man exercizes the gift of faith bestowed upon regeneration. Regeneration must precede conversion since Scripture tells us: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Corinthians 2:14] It is important to realize that conversion is a personal experience of a regenerate person with Holy God. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience. God saves people one at a time! Jesus Christ explains conversion in the following manner:
John 3:16, KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life..
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In the sermon by Spurgeon "All of Grace" I find the following insightful statement. Section 13, http://www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm
Some truths which it is hard to explain in words are simple enough in actual experience. There is no discrepancy between the truth that the sinner believes, and that his faith is wrought in him by the Holy Spirit.
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convicted1
Guest
Brother,
I have not avoided anything, but I want to let people have their say, and then weigh in.....I am not completely dogmatic about this, but I tend to lean this way. Now, if they can hear God when He calls them from their graves, how can they not hear while on earth? IOW, God's call works one way after regeneration only, but doesn't need regenerated to hear from the grave? Sounds like wanting one's cake, and eating it too.
Job 14:10-15
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job spoke here about the Lord calling him from his grave, and he would answer him. Now, will God not also call sinners from their graves, too?
I know that the ones on here who do not have the likes of Pink, Calvin, Bunyan, Luther, MacArthur, Piper, et al as their "heroes", they are in grievous error. But I am not entirely dogmatic about this, but I do lean this way.
convicted1
Guest
When the sledding gets rough, let it be known, that they have to let someone else speak for them.
preacher4truth
Active Member
First, you are completely dogmatic about it.
Secondly, my point is you've used a passage that is not soteriological to prove your soteriological theory. Doing so is erroneous and your point is moot, in addition it is not solid debate material since the passage is off topic, that is, it isn't soteriological. That all will hear His voice at judgment doesn't retro back to prove so at other times. He must quicken the dead, and this He does as He saves those He has chosen. This is the Scriptural protocol.
Thirdly, you had avoided it up until now while thumbing up everyone who also misuses this same text you've provided along the way. I'm not the only one to bring it up, others have also and were not addressed.
:wavey: :thumbsup:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
convicted1.
I am embarrassed and disappointed! I really did not expect such a cynical response from an Old Regular Baptist.
I don't know whether you read my post or not. I did a word count. I contributed, including Scripture, 598 words to the post. The quote from Spurgeon was 39 words. The only reason that I used those words by Spurgeon is that they are consistent with my post.
Spurgeon was not speaking for me even though he is correct. I let the Scripture speak for me.
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I love how those who don't actually address the spiritually dead being able to hear (or not hear) in a spiritual sense just flippitantly dismiss it while attempting to appeal to "debate practices"...and then subsequently brush it under the rug under the guise of it not dealing with salvation, hence no need in having to actually deal with it...which was never Willis' intent in starting this thread to begin with.
Willis, am I correct in my assessment?
Willis, am I correct in my assessment?
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