John Gerstner's Unbiblical Nonsense!

[robycop3]

I know, but this does not mean that anyone, not even the angels, will actually "see" the suffering of the wicked. I cannot accept that God would do such a thing!

What does "presence" mean ?

 

[SavedByGrace]

God ordained the means

like He does everything in the world, as the reformed teach?

 

[Yeshua1]

No he doesn't.
Prove that.

AHA!
So, God DESTROYS both body and Soul in hell!!
And here, I thought you weren't an Annihilationist.
I thought you believed God intentionally kept people alive for the sole purpose of torturing them forever.
Good to know you aren't as lost as I thought.
Yes, God can DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL in hell.

No, God casts sinners into Hell:
In Hell, according to Jesus (but not Austin) God DESTROYS BOTH BODY AND SOUL.
That's what Jesus taught.
You teach whatever you feel like.

Yes, he destroys them, body and soul.

Ruined.destroyed does NOT mean cease to exist, means existing apart from presence of God!

 

[robycop3]

Those that don't truly believe ( professed with the lips, but in their works they deny actually knowing Him ) and never did,
and those who have never professed Christ.

He said "whoever BELIEVES." Again, who does that leave out besides Satan & his demons among whose who DO believe? It tells me that ANY PERSON is eligible to believe & be saved.

 

[Tsalagi]

No...men are bound in sin...they are not neutral but oppose God.

That's not what Jesus says:
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." There is no notion of election or effectual call in John 3, nor does God judge people for something over which they have no control.

Paul clearly states that sin does not disable the ability to choose what is good, it disables the ability to perform it (Romans 7:18-25).

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Ruined.destroyed does NOT mean cease to exist, means existing apart from presence of God!

"Destroyed" means: "Destroyed".
Prove otherwise.

No one has brought up "Cease to exist" except you:
I agree, The Bible says nothing about "Cease to exist".

The Bible does say: "DESTROY".
and "DESTROY" means "DESTROY".

Your move.

 

[SavedByGrace]

What does "presence" mean ?

since the angels are before the Throne of God, day and night, it will be in their "presence" as well. What purpose will it serve to see sinners suffering?

 

[robycop3]

No he doesn't.
Prove that.

AHA!
So, God DESTROYS both body and Soul in hell!!
And here, I thought you weren't an Annihilationist.
I thought you believed God intentionally kept people alive for the sole purpose of torturing them forever.
Good to know you aren't as lost as I thought.
Yes, God can DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL in hell.

No, God casts sinners into Hell:
In Hell, according to Jesus (but not Austin) God DESTROYS BOTH BODY AND SOUL.
That's what Jesus taught.
You teach whatever you feel like.

Yes, he destroys them, body and soul.

Rev. 20:14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev. 21:8But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Rev. 14:11And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

There's no separate lake of fire for those who dies in sin in the past & those who will in the future.

 

[robycop3]

since the angels are before the Throne of God, day and night, it will be in their "presence" as well. What purpose will it serve to see sinners suffering?

GOD knows; I don't.

 

[Dave G]

show from the Bible, where it says that believers will see their loved ones being tormented in hell

Never mind, SBG.

 

[Tsalagi]

You do not understand the verse as usual.
You ignore who it was spoken to and why.

"All these things were written for our instruction" (Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 10:11, Hebrews 4).

The notion that our hearts are either hopelessly under the power of sin or effectually moved to faith and perseverance by God is impossible to reconcile with the clear teaching of passages such as Hebrews 3:12-19.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Never mind, SBG.

why? I would like to see Scripture for this?

 

[Van]

Stick to the topic, Van. When you have nothing, you just say "Calvin." Have you ever read anything written by John Calvin? Please quote John Calvin on hell for us.

Yet another off topic, change the subject post.

Calvinism's view of God is irrational nonsense. They say God does not love the world (humankind) rewriting John 3:16.

I do not think scripture answers the OP question, how could we be happy in heaven with the knowledge our earthly loved ones are in torment in Hades and Gehenna. The best answer is God is just and we would know they received perfect justice.

 

[Reformed1689]

Justin Martyr (100-165): “For the whole human race will be found to be under a curse. … the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up,… His Father wished Him to suffer this, in order that by His stripes the human race might be healed”

Clement of Alexandria (150-220): "Christ freely brings...salvation to the whole human race."

Eusebius (260-340): "It was needful that the Lamb of God should be offered for the other lambs whose nature He assumed, even for the whole human race."

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "Do not wonder if the whole world was ransomed, for He was not a mere man, but the only-begotten Son of God."

Gregory of Nazianzen (324-389): "The sacrifice of Christ is an imperishable expiation of the whole world."

Ambrose (340-407): "Christ suffered for all, rose again for all. But if anyone does not believe in Christ, he deprives himself of that general benefit." He also said, "Christ came for the salvation of all, and undertook the redemption of all, inasmuch as He brought a remedy by which all might escape, although there are many who...are unwilling to be healed."

Cyril of Alexandria (376-444): "The death of one flesh is sufficient for the ransom of the whole human race, for it belonged to the Logos, begotten of God the Father."

Prosper (a friend and disciple of Augustine who died in 463): "As far as relates to the magnitude and virtue of the price, and to the one cause of the human race, the blood of Christ is the redemption of the whole world: but those who pass through this life without the faith of Christ, and the sacrament of regeneration, do not partake of the redemption." He also said, "The Savior is most rightly said to have been crucified for the redemption of the whole world." He then said, "Although the blood of Christ be the ransom of the whole world, yet they are excluded from its benefit, who, being delighted with their captivity, are unwilling to be redeemed by it."

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."

Philip Melanchton (1497-1560): "It is necessary to know that the Gospel is a universal promise, that is, that reconciliation is offered and promised to all mankind. It is necessary to hold that this promise is universal, in opposition to any dangerous imaginations on predestination, lest we should reason this promise pertains to a few others and ourselves. But we declare that the promise of the Gospel is universal. And to this are brought those universal expressions which are used constantly in the Scriptures."

Other people involved to some degree in the Reformation who held to unlimited atonement include: Hugh Latimer, Myles Coverdale, Thomas Cranmer, Wolfgang Musculus, Henry Bullinger, Benedict Aretius, Thomas Becon, Jerome Zanchius, David Paraeus, and, as noted earlier, John Calvin.

Ok, so since you said Augustine wasn't valid because he was 300 years after the fact, I'm going to ignore most of this post. The ones before Augustine notice they never said all individuals. Human Race does not equal Individuals.

 

[Reformed1689]

Who does "Whoever" leave out?

Doesn't just say "Whoever" does it?

 

[Reformed1689]

So it's OK to speak your version of the truth in strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction (1 Timothy 6:4) because the other guy is doing it? That kind of behavior should be avoided in discussing biblical truths no matter what the opinion. Jesus says if we believe Scripture we ought to listen to what it says, and it clearly says don't bite and devour one another.

First off, that isn't what I said. I called @SavedByGrace a liar because he has repeatedly told lies about others on this forum. That's calling out his SIN. You can try and twist it how you want but I don't care. He is a liar and has repeatedly done so on this forum and needs to be held accountable.

 

[Reformed1689]

The stated object of God's love in that verse is not the one believing, it is the world. Anyone in the world who responds to God's love by believing in His Son will have everlasting life. The Lord's words are clear and unambiguous.

That still doesn't equal all individuals. That's not the question John 3:16 is answering by your own standard. God loved the human race stop. Yes. The human race has nothing to do with individual people. Of that human race, he saves the ones that believe. Yes. What John 3:16 does not answer is who will believe. Only the elect will believe because they are the sheep.

 

[Reformed1689]

Calling out a pattern would focus on the content of posts, and demonstrate that they are false. Impugning a fellow believer's character is not that. Matthew 7:1-2.

Thank you for your opinion. I disagree. By the way you take Matthew 7 out of context.

 

[Reformed1689]

You should be ashamed of yourself for continuing to distort the Bible

I do nothing of the sort so no shame here.

 

[Dave G]

IF anyone is chosen to salvation before the foundation of the world, then what is the point of preaching the Gospel to them? they are, according to reformed theology, saved in eternity past!

"If?"
That's been answered, SBG.

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" ( Ephesians 1:3-7 ).

Do you see what I've highlighted and underlined?
I don't have any problem believing the words.

What is it about them that you find objectionable?
I'm simply believing them at face value.

 

[SavedByGrace]

That's calling out his SIN