John MacArthur blasts Joel Osteen's teaching..

[Pastor Larry]

I have never agreed with MacArthur and Osteen. The problem is that both men start with presuppositions.

"Man is unwilling to come to God. (20:45-21:02)" How does that compare to Hebrews 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please [Him], for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

Deut. 4:29, ""But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul."

Deut. 6:5, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

Deut. 10:12, "Now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require from you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the Lord's commandments and His statutes which I am commanding you today for your good?"

Deut. 11:13-14, "It shall come about, if you listen obediently to my commandments which I am commanding you today, to love the Lord your God and to serve Him with all your heart and all your soul, that He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early and late rain, that you may gather in your grain and your new wine and your oil."

Curious. You talk about man being unwilling to come to God and then quote a number of verses that are irrelevant to that topic.

Do you believe that man being willing to come to God is a good thing? I do. And I imagine you do as well.

Well, the Bible plainly declares that there is none that does good, not even one.

So on the biblical basis, we can declare that there is no one willing to come to God. Jesus himself said this in John 5. In Rom 8, this lack of coming to God is said to be a matter of inability.

So rather than quote irrelevant verses and attack John MacArthur, why not just deal with the Scriptures?

The idea that MacArthur has built his ministry on attacking others is simply ludicrous. No one can say that if they have spent any time listening or reading him. He has built his ministry on expository preaching. He does, in the pattern of Scripture, expose false teachers for their teaching from time to time, but this is hardly the mainstay of his ministry. In this case, he did not attack Osteen personally. He spoke out about a gospel issue. Joel Osteen does not preach the biblical gospel. The sad part is that many people are not speaking out about him.

 

[gb93433]

Curious. You talk about man being unwilling to come to God and then quote a number of verses that are irrelevant to that topic.

Do you believe that man being willing to come to God is a good thing? I do. And I imagine you do as well.

Well, the Bible plainly declares that there is none that does good, not even one.

So on the biblical basis, we can declare that there is no one willing to come to God. Jesus himself said this in John 5. In Rom 8, this lack of coming to God is said to be a matter of inability.

My point was that MacArthur on the message states that none are willing and all are incapable of coming to God. Then I quote some verses that I believe disagree with that point. If man were unwilling and incapable then God would not have inspired any commands and imperatives in scripture. Therefore making scripture a lie if MacArthur is right. I choose to believe the commands in scripture.

Also if man is incapable to come to God then how did Abraham get there? Isn't that like saying God exists but nobody can or is incapable of coming to God? If man is not ever capable or unwilling then that says a lot about the Holy Spirit.

Goodness on my part does not bring me to God. Christ does (1 Peter 3:18). The Holy Spirit reveals God to me and my bad condition, and that I must obey. The response to that message is up to me.

 

[jvargas]

Whatever you want to say about Joel Osteen's ministry I can at least say for a fact that the Gospel is presented at the end of every service. I've been to Lakewood before and have several colleagues who have been through as well and there is a clear Gospel presentation.

I don't care much for Joel's preaching (for obvious reasons) but there is life change happening in people who attend his church.

It just seems odd to me that every time John MacArthur is trying to gain ground and make a public statement like this it is always at the expense of another ministry. Most of them, most of them are non-essential issues. He just seems very typical of an older mindset in ministry.

I've been asked not to post in the Baptist Only section of the board so out of respect for the rules and the Moderators this will be my last post here. I only want to reply to your post to show that I am not dismissive of your comments.

I have never been to Lakewood and you have. I have no reason to not trust you when you say that there was a clear presentation of the Gospel at the end of the service you attended. I have read Joel's book "Your Best Life Now" which fails to give a clear presentation of the Gospel. I have watched Joel on Larry King Live where he was asked to present the Gospel and he failed to do so. My hope is that a man that has been given such great influence would begin to proclaim the Gospel outside of the four walls of his church building.

 

[gb93433]

I have watched Joel on Larry King Live where he was asked to present the Gospel and he failed to do so. My hope is that a man that has been given such great influence would begin to proclaim the Gospel outside of the four walls of his church building.

I also read the gospels where Jesus did not always give out the gospel when asked. There were tiems when he told the person he healed to say nothing too.

Luke 10:25-27, "And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."

Luke 18:18-22, "A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. "You know the commandments, `Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.' " And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

 

[stilllearning]

Hi gb93433

The Lord’s response to a particular individual, in no way equals a preacher on Larry King live.
(I can’t believe, that you are defending what Osteen didn’t do.)
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Also, a person testifying of being healed, is not sharing the Gospel.

 

[gb93433]

The Lord’s response to a particular individual, in no way equals a preacher on Larry King live.
(I can’t believe, that you are defending what Osteen didn’t do.)
--------------------------------------------------
Also, a person testifying of being healed, is not sharing the Gospel.

Read what I actually wrote. Do not assume I am defending Osteen. I could not ever support him. However I have experienced worse among evangelicals. The problem I see is that so many Christian leaders push the nonsense that they must give the gospel at all times. I just do not see that with Jesus. Sometimes the Holy Spirit gives wisdom; He always does when people listen. To think that we musty always fit the mold is not like God's work. God cannot be put in a box for a one size fits all. God must always lead otherwise our efforts are nothing more than failures. I have led more people to Christ since I came to that realization.

 

[stilllearning]

Read what I actually wrote. Do not assume I am defending Osteen. I could not ever support him. However I have experienced worse among evangelicals. The problem I see is that so many Christian leaders push the nonsense that they must give the gospel at all times. I just do not see that with Jesus. Sometimes the Holy Spirit gives wisdom; He always does when people listen. To think that we musty always fit the mold is not like God's work. God cannot be put in a box for a one size fits all. God must always lead otherwise our efforts are nothing more than failures. I have led more people to Christ since I came to that realization.

Enough said, I understand now.

Recently I realized the same thing about funerals;
God’s Word gives us instructions to comfort the family during a funeral; We are not mandated to always preach the Gospel.

 

[preachinjesus]

Do not assume I am defending Osteen. I could not ever support him.

Too bad that around here if you question the premise of a post like this you are automatically lumped in with supporting and defending the other ministry.

That just simply isn't the case and I haven't seen anyone around here suggest that Joel Osteen has a ministry worth emulating. We are all cautious with him. Just because we question MacArthur's condemnation doesn't mean we unequivocally support the condemned.

 

[RAdam]

My point was that MacArthur on the message states that none are willing and all are incapable of coming to God. Then I quote some verses that I believe disagree with that point. If man were unwilling and incapable then God would not have inspired any commands and imperatives in scripture. Therefore making scripture a lie if MacArthur is right. I choose to believe the commands in scripture.

Also if man is incapable to come to God then how did Abraham get there? Isn't that like saying God exists but nobody can or is incapable of coming to God? If man is not ever capable or unwilling then that says a lot about the Holy Spirit.

Goodness on my part does not bring me to God. Christ does (1 Peter 3:18). The Holy Spirit reveals God to me and my bad condition, and that I must obey. The response to that message is up to me.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

There you have a unwillingness and and an inability. There are many more verses that prove this. The reason you were willing to come to God in the gospel was because He had already made you willing in the day of His power.

 

[RAdam]

Enough said, I understand now.

Recently I realized the same thing about funerals;
God’s Word gives us instructions to comfort the family during a funeral; We are not mandated to always preach the Gospel.

We are always mandated to preach the gospel. Paul said preach the word, be instant in season and out of season. If we preach the gospel for what it is, it will comfort the families, because the gospel declares the finished work of Christ.

 

[Pastor Larry]

My point was that MacArthur on the message states that none are willing and all are incapable of coming to God. Then I quote some verses that I believe disagree with that point.

But none of the verses you cite actually say that, as you can tell by reading them. So do you have any verses that do say that?

If man were unwilling and incapable then God would not have inspired any commands and imperatives in scripture.

Why is that? I don't see this in Scripture, but I am willing to listen.

Let's use an example: Jesus commands "Be you perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt 5:45).

Is it possible for man to be perfect? If so, what does "all have sinned" actually mean? If not, doesn't that prove your premise wrong?

I choose to believe the commands in scripture.

But you must also believe its statements.

Also if man is incapable to come to God then how did Abraham get there?

The same way anyone else does ... by God's grace.

Isn't that like saying God exists but nobody can or is incapable of coming to God?

No. It's like saying there is none who does good, not even one." Or like saying that we are dead in trespasses and sin, walking according to the desires of our flesh.

If man is not ever capable or unwilling then that says a lot about the Holy Spirit.

Who said anything about "ever"? Notice how you subtly change the issue to support your preconceived point.

BTW, I notice you didn't answer my question: Is coming to God a good thing? If so, and you believe that there is none who does good, how do you reconcile that with your position?

 

[RAdam]

Here's another question: does man coming to God please God? If so, how do you deal with this verse from Romans 8: "so then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

 

[gb93433]

But none of the verses you cite actually say that, as you can tell by reading them. So do you have any verses that do say that?

Scripture says that we will find God is we seek for him with all our heart.
Jer. 29:11-14 , `For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the Lord, `plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. `Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. `You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. `I will be found by you,' declares the Lord, `and I will restore your fortunes and will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you,' declares the Lord, `and I will bring you back to the place from where I sent you into exile.' `

Let's use an example: Jesus commands "Be you perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt 5:45).

Perfection as used in scripture is not like perfection in the jet age but spiritually mature. Am I not when I am in Christ, perfect?

Is it possible for man to be perfect? If so, what does "all have sinned" actually mean? If not, doesn't that prove your premise wrong?

The same way anyone else does ... by God's grace.

That does not give man an excuse for not responding. Romans 1 says that all are without excuse. Since that is true then God makes man capable of responding but it is man's choice to remain in sin or walk with God.

No. It's like saying there is none who does good, not even one." Or like saying that we are dead in trespasses and sin, walking according to the desires of our flesh.

Apart from Christ we can do nothing.

Who said anything about "ever"? Notice how you subtly change the issue to support your preconceived point.

BTW, I notice you didn't answer my question: Is coming to God a good thing? If so, and you believe that there is none who does good, how do you reconcile that with your position?

If man is incapable and unwilling then he can do nothing and that includes respond to God. Isn't that "ever"? If man is capable of respondig to God but chooses to do his own thing to his own destruction that is his choice, but there are others who choose to follow Jesus instead. Some are blind and other see. I think the choice is to be blind or see. Before I came to Christ I prayed and God gave me the answer by one who was willing to tell me. The others who could have I think were afraid. I did respond to the gospel when I heard it fore the first time. I cannot think of a time when I did not think about spiritual things and did what I knew. I saw myself as talking to God probably much like one would without a knowledge of the Bible.

 

[RAdam]

Jeremiah 29, one of the most misused areas in scripture. The prophet is writing to the captives in Babylon about their restoration. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether sinners have the ability to come to Christ in the gospel.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Enough said, I understand now.

Recently I realized the same thing about funerals;
God’s Word gives us instructions to comfort the family during a funeral; We are not mandated to always preach the Gospel.

Where does it say that we are to give comfort in a funeral? I believe we ought to comfort families, but not sure where the Scripture talks about how we do funerals.

Are you saying that there are funerals where we ought not to preach the Gospel? If that is what you are saying why would you not preach the Gospel at a funeral?

 

[Revmitchell]

Where in scripture does it clearly delineate that God does not offer grace to some people?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Scripture says that we will find God is we seek for him with all our heart.

Yes indeed. But that's not the issue here.

Perfection as used in scripture is not like perfection in the jet age but spiritually mature.

So Jesus was saying "Be spiritually mature like your Father in heaven is spiritually mature"? I am not sure what "perfection in the jet age" means, but then I am not sure what it means to say that God is spiritually mature. I think God's perfection is absolute moral uprightness, conforming to his own standard of right.

Am I not when I am in Christ, perfect?

No, Christ is perfect. You are still a sinner.

Romans 1 says that all are without excuse. Since that is true then God makes man capable of responding but it is man's choice to remain in sin or walk with God.

You will have to explain how the fact that all men are without excuse means that they are capable of responding. You will notice that is not in the text.

Apart from Christ we can do nothing.

Yes, that would be my point. But that text is not addressing this discussion.

If man is incapable and unwilling then he can do nothing and that includes respond to God. Isn't that "ever"?

No. (As you can tell by reading it.)

I think the choice is to be blind or see.

So being blind is a choice? 2 Cor 4 says that God opens the eyes. It sounds there like it is God's choice, doesn't it?

 

[gb93433]

Here's another question: does man coming to God please God? If so, how do you deal with this verse from Romans 8: "so then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Paul said that he wrestled with two natures. Do you have just one?

 

[gb93433]

So being blind is a choice? 2 Cor 4 says that God opens the eyes. It sounds there like it is God's choice, doesn't it?

God has a choice and so do I. God chose to have me born and I choose His plan of being born again in response to His grace. Some choose to stay blind and remain in sin.

 

[Pastor Larry]

God has a choice and so do I. God chose to have me born and I choose His plan of being born again in response to His grace. Some choose to stay blind and remain in sin.

Not to prolong this since it is off topic, but I think it is evident that (1) you are avoiding questions (likely because you have no answers to them) and (2) you have not shown that MacArthur is incorrect (he may be, but you haven't shown it from Scripture).

Here's the questions again that you are avoiding:

1. IF coming to God good? If so, since there is none that does good, doesn't that mean that there is none that come to God?
2. Do you actually believe that Jesus was saying the father is spiritually mature?
3. Is being blind a choice?

If you answer, please use Scripture rather than simply offering your own opinion.