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John MacArthur is addressing Catholic heresies
- Thread starter annsni
- Start date
He has mis-spoken about the Catholic Church and it's teaching many, many times.
I listened to a video posted on this board some time back where he mentioned Catholics believing Purgatory as a 'second chance'. The person who posted the video denied he said it and then I brought it to his attention the 'time stamp' on the video for his review. Here are some other examples:
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a137.htm
BTW, I am not one of those who accuse MacArthur of lying as some people on the 'Catholic Answers' board have done. I was priviliged to attend Biola University and was able to hear him speak at various times either at Biola or Talbot Theological Seminary (on Biola campus) and have great respect for the man and do not think the man would ever intentionally lie about the Catholic Church. I think he is simply mistaken.
I listened to a video posted on this board some time back where he mentioned Catholics believing Purgatory as a 'second chance'. The person who posted the video denied he said it and then I brought it to his attention the 'time stamp' on the video for his review. Here are some other examples:
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a137.htm
BTW, I am not one of those who accuse MacArthur of lying as some people on the 'Catholic Answers' board have done. I was priviliged to attend Biola University and was able to hear him speak at various times either at Biola or Talbot Theological Seminary (on Biola campus) and have great respect for the man and do not think the man would ever intentionally lie about the Catholic Church. I think he is simply mistaken.
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And yet you failed to address the op at all.
'It’s the false doctrine of purgatory that provides Catholics their spiritual safety net, bringing false hope to people trapped in a hopeless system. It’s the one relief in their entire guilt-ridden, fear-ridden system of works righteousness. And it is complete fiction—a tragic farce that’s led countless souls to hell.'
What is there to address? Works-righteousness accusation? Accusation of a 'Second Chance' Purgatory? etc. Generally you do nothing more on the Catholic related threads than to make your usual sweeping condemnations of everything Catholic which indicates to me that you have never looked at the actual teachings of the Church.
I do not very often even respond to Catholic threads. I don't make any sweeping accusations.
What exactly is the purpose of "purgatory" in the Catholic belief system anyway?
That's exactly what the purpose of purgatory is. "You aren't quite good enough to get into heaven because Jesus' sacrifice on the cross didn't cover those sins so you can work them off yourself. When you've suffered enough, then you can get into heaven. Too bad it's not Biblical.
How can anyone who is a believer and knows Scripture submit themselves to the Catholic Church that still stands behind this statement:
“Hence, to those who work well unto the end and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.”
or
"If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema."
Yet we see God telling us "Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin."
“Hence, to those who work well unto the end and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.”
or
"If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema."
Yet we see God telling us "Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin."
a lot of their teachings have nothing to do with the Bible.
It is also interesting that they hold scripture and "TRADITION" on EQUAL sentiments, read the following from the catholic catechism
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”44
Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Purgatory is not a place as a process, the final expression of ontological change within the person begining at faith and progressing through life bringing about the transformation into the likeness of Christ. As Benedict XVI said
It should only be understood in the view of Theosis.
I can explain to you what an IFB church is a dozen times over and you will still get it wrong and mis-characterize us all. And yet you fault MacArthur over this one point.
Purgatory is for RCC believers. I know that.
It doesn't give people a second chance in that all who are there will eventually make it.
But it still denies the efficacy of the blood of Christ. That is what makes it a blasphemous doctrine. Christ shed his blood to make an atonement for all our sins: past, present and future. His blood wasn't shed for just a few sins, but for all sins. Purgatory denies that. The Bible says that I (by believing on Christ and his sacrifice for me), have been purged of all my sins. The RCC says: "No you haven't." I believe the Bible, thank you very much. Purgatory is a blasphemous doctrine.
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
We have been purged from all sins.
There is no need of any such Purgatory.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
This place/condition of purgatory takes place after death, and is punishment for sins because apparently the RCC has determined that Christ's sacrifice for sin was not enough or complete. This ignores the fact that Jesus said "it is finished", and Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
And you would accept this blasphemy against the perfect attoning work of Christ on the cross? This is exactly why believers should RUN from the RCC and it's unbiblical, antichrist statements such as the one you posted by this pope here. Christ paid it ALL!! Pray God allows you eyes and ears to see and hear.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Not a "Punishment". Its a result. As an example imagine a flame near some metal mixed in with chips of wood (remember its an imperfect example but explains the point). The chips of wood will as a result catch fire and burn leaving the metal as is. Now let me put it simply. Now when Paul teaches the Ephesians
Would you therefore suggest that Paul is saying that the blood of Christ is insufficient in that the Ephesians were living according to "sensuality, greed, and every kind of impurity after they had recieved faith? If not then why not? It is this same argument you apply to Catholic teaching. Obvioulsy the Ephesians were living wrongly in their faith enough that Paul had to direct them not to live that way. Ask your self if after they recieved faith they continued in their impurity then was Christ blood insufficient?
Not according to the link I posted.
There is no punishment for those in Christ. No purgatory. The blood of Christ removes all sin. There is therefore NO condemnation.
As I first began to learn about the doctrine of Purgatory, I would go back and forth with my questions and arguments in an effort to discern the truth. It turned out that both Catholics and Baptist along with other Protestants agreed that very few of us die perfectly free from sin, and both sides agreed that Revelation 21:27 meant what it said that imperfect persons could not get into heaven.
Rev. 21:27 says that nothing un-clean is admitted to Heaven. I have learned in class that this word 'un-clean (the greek word koinon) means a 'spiritual corruption'. Any inclination toward sin would be un-clean and the need for purification. The atonement by Jesus on the cross and the existence of Purgatory shows me how merciful God really is. Some on the board will say, 'wasn't Jesus' sacrifice enough? Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost'. It is absolutely true that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us.
Catholicism posits Purgatory to be the solution to how a Christian who is still imperfect, not completely sanctified at the moment of death, still gets into heaven.
The folks at my Bible church told me that it was in the flesh that a person was still sinful and imperfect, but that the soul was pure and holy, and so, when the Christian dies, their pure soul leaves their sinful body, and goes right to heaven.
In other words, the best defence of non-purgatory from the Protestants that I knew, was Gnosticism.
That began to send me in the direction of the Catholic Faith.
Johnny Mac is not someone the seeker friendly church would want to invite either!:laugh:
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
I think they charge money to pray them out.
It's not that we are free from sin, but rather that our sins are blotted out, erased, paid in full by the blood of Jesus Christ through faith alone.
This is incorrect. The blood of Christ is the purification for sin! Alone!
This is incorrect. The Scriptures makes perfectly clear how this redemption is applied to us, by grace through faith. Alone.
Exactly, they don't comprehend the cross of Christ. They have created a solution for a problem which does not exist within a believer in Jesus Christ.
Sounds like they tried to explain something that needs no explanation. By grace are ye saved through faith. The blood of Christ pays for every sin in full for the believer. No need for man to add to God's perfect plan just because they cannot understand perfect grace.
A reading of the scriptures alone should have sent you running from the Catholic Faith.
In Christ Alone :jesus: