John MacArthur

[SovereignGrace]

Philp 4:11
"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content."

Wasn't the Apostle Paul worth a few million dollars......

It’s not a matter of how much money we have, but how much money it has us.

 

[Salty]

It’s not a matter of how much money we have, but how much money it has us.

Its been said that a Pastors standard should be about the average of his congergation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Its been said that a Pastors standard should be about the average of his congergation.

Well, what is the average of the church he pastors? Plus, he has worked with Master’s Seminary and sold a bunch of books, too. It’s not like he’s robbing the church and making it rich that way.

 

[AustinC]

Its been said that a Pastors standard should be about the average of his congergation.

Is that in scripture or is that in culture?

 

[Salty]

Is that in scripture or is that in culture?

I would say that is common sense.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I would say that is common sense.

Why should a pastor have = money to the average of the congregation? Dr. MacArthur has made a lot of money selling books. Should he have to distribute money he’s rightly earned to help those who aren’t as wealthy as him?

 

[Salty]

Why should a pastor have = money to the average of the congregation? Dr. MacArthur has made a lot of money selling books. Should he have to distribute money he’s rightly earned to help those who aren’t as wealthy as him?

and maybe he hasn't legally rightly earned!!!!!!!!

Q&A: Who Owns The Pastor’s Sermons, Blogs & Books?

 

[SovereignGrace]

and maybe he hasn't legally rightly earned!!!!!!!!

Q&A: Who Owns The Pastor’s Sermons, Blogs & Books?

I don’t know the axe to grind, but in that article I read this…

Question: Do some religious authors retain the copyrights in their works?

Answer: Some clergy may have been advised to make sure they have an agreement with their churches whereby they keep all the copyrights to their writings. Such counsel, however, is not consistent with the Copyright Act’s work-for-hire doctrine, which makes it quite clear that employers own works of authorship created as a part of their employees’ jobs. Part of a religious leader’s job may be to write sermons. Pastors from John Cotton and Jonathon Edwards to the present have considered it integral to their calling to write sermons, blogs, articles and books, all of which constitute intellectual property by definition. Even the preaching of a sermon is the creation of intellectual property.

Even though it wouldn’t be consistent with that law, if there was an agreement, then it’s no one else’s business what they do. I’m not saying this is the case, but if it is, it’s betwixt Dr. MacArthur and the church.

 

[Salty]

I don’t know the axe to grind, but in that article I read this…

Even though it wouldn’t be consistent with that law, if there was an agreement, then it’s no one else’s business what they do. I’m not saying this is the case, but if it is, it’s betwixt Dr. MacArthur and the church.

and the latest legal advice is that should be part of the agreement (contract) with the pastor.

But stop and think about it - the church pays his full time salary (and benefits) thus when he writes a book - it technically was written on church time. In addition - if he was not pastor of that church - he would not have the "soapbox" have a "best-seller"

Its the same in secular business -an employee of a major corp comes up with an invention or some other item to copyright or other legal ownership - that would belong to the company - as the individual is doing much of it on company time.

 

[SovereignGrace]

and the latest legal advice is that should be part of the agreement (contract) with the pastor.

But stop and think about it - the church pays his full time salary (and benefits) thus when he writes a book - it technically was written on church time. In addition - if he was not pastor of that church - he would not have the "soapbox" have a "best-seller"

Its the same in secular business -an employee of a major corp comes up with an invention or some other item to copyright or other legal ownership - that would belong to the company - as the individual is doing much of it on company time.

But if the church and he have an agreement, then that’s between them.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I don’t know the axe to grind, but in that article I read this…

Even though it wouldn’t be consistent with that law, if there was an agreement, then it’s no one else’s business what they do. I’m not saying this is the case, but if it is, it’s betwixt Dr. MacArthur and the church.

Question: Who owns material created by a clergyperson or other employee of religious institutions?

Answer: A recent article in Christianity Today (“CT”) posed this question and provided some intriguing answers. CT noted correctly that the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976 makes the clergyperson’s creative work a “work for hire,” which means that the copyrights in sermons are owned by the church or religious organization that employs him or her. CT also called attention to an issue that intellectual property attorneys often miss: for a non-profit organization, such copyrights are considered charitable assets and must be used for charitable purposes. If a charitable organization gives away its copyrights, then it may run up against the Internal Revenue Service’s (IRS) ban on “private inurement” because of the resulting personal gain. If copyrights are handled incorrectly, the organization could lose its tax-exempt status under Section 501(c)(3), and the individuals that receive the copyrights could also face other adverse tax consequences.​

According to that, it's not merely between the pastor and the hiring church. Some legal advice is wrong, which is the point of that last statement. While they may have an agreement, it may affect tax exempt status. They may have to choose.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Question: Who owns material created by a clergyperson or other employee of religious institutions?

Answer: A recent article in Christianity Today (“CT”) posed this question and provided some intriguing answers. CT noted correctly that the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976 makes the clergyperson’s creative work a “work for hire,” which means that the copyrights in sermons are owned by the church or religious organization that employs him or her. CT also called attention to an issue that intellectual property attorneys often miss: for a non-profit organization, such copyrights are considered charitable assets and must be used for charitable purposes. If a charitable organization gives away its copyrights, then it may run up against the Internal Revenue Service’s (IRS) ban on “private inurement” because of the resulting personal gain. If copyrights are handled incorrectly, the organization could lose its tax-exempt status under Section 501(c)(3), and the individuals that receive the copyrights could also face other adverse tax consequences.​

According to that, it's not merely between the pastor and the hiring church. Some legal advice is wrong, which is the point of that last statement. While they may have an agreement, it may affect tax exempt status. They may have to choose.

I wasn’t exactly sure what to make of that.

 

[canadyjd]

and the latest legal advice is that should be part of the agreement (contract) with the pastor.

But stop and think about it - the church pays his full time salary (and benefits) thus when he writes a book - it technically was written on church time. In addition - if he was not pastor of that church - he would not have the "soapbox" have a "best-seller"

Its the same in secular business -an employee of a major corp comes up with an invention or some other item to copyright or other legal ownership - that would belong to the company - as the individual is doing much of it on company time.

The church is not a business. There is long precedent in common law and church history of Pastors earning additional money through books, weddings, funerals etc, that might not be directly related to his church responsibilities.

The church does not own everything he writes or produces. Personally, I don’t think the church owns anything produced.

peace to you

peace to you

 

[Salty]

...The church does not own everything he writes or produces. Personally, I don’t think the church owns anything produced. ...

It is NOT what we think -it is what the law says - which could be different in some states/commowealths.

Be best to talk to a lawyer about it.

It could take just one member to raise an objection and take it to court!

Just saying

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

The church is not a business. There is long precedent in common law and church history of Pastors earning additional money through books, weddings, funerals etc, that might not be directly related to his church responsibilities.

The church does not own everything he writes or produces. Personally, I don’t think the church owns anything produced.

According to the answer in her short catechism (see post #91 above), the IRS recognizes that the church is not a business, but also that the pastor is not a businessman.

However, if the arrangement is such that the church is treated as a business, or the pastor as a businessman, then that can change the legal dynamics.

If you're in it for the bling, then you may have to pay the piper—in the form of losing tax exempt status and paying more taxes.

 

[canadyjd]

It is NOT what we think -it is what the law says - which could be different in some states/commowealths.

Be best to talk to a lawyer about it.

It could take just one member to raise an objection and take it to court!

Just saying

Just trying to look objectively at the issue. Biblically speaking, the pastor is not an employee of the “church”. He is the leader of a voluntary fellowship whose members voluntarily pay him for his work. It’s only in the last 100 years or so that churches began to “incorporate” at the state level hoping to protect members from lawsuits.

In determining whether the pastor is an employee, ask these questions: Does the pastor set his own schedule or does the “church” dictate his schedule? Does the church dictate responsibilities or does the pastor have say over his responsibilities?

peace to you

 

[Salty]

Just trying to look objectively at the issue. Biblically speaking, the pastor is not an employee of the “church”. He is the leader of a voluntary fellowship whose members voluntarily pay him for his work. It’s only in the last 100 years or so that churches began to “incorporate” at the state level hoping to protect members from lawsuits.

In determining whether the pastor is an employee, ask these questions: Does the pastor set his own schedule or does the “church” dictate his schedule? Does the church dictate responsibilities or does the pastor have say over his responsibilities?

Is the Pastor an employee or not
Granted most baptist pastors are not considered employees by their local church,
but in many denominations - the pastor is an employee.

 

[canadyjd]

Is the Pastor an employee or not
Granted most baptist pastors are not considered employees by their local church,
but in many denominations - the pastor is an employee.

Purely from a biblical standpoint, the pastor is not an employee. Even if considered to be an employee in some modern legal sense, for tax purposes, that doesn’t mean the church fellowship owns his works, imo.

eace to you

 

[Salty]

Purely from a biblical standpoint, the pastor is not an employee. Even if considered to be an employee in some modern legal sense, for tax purposes, that doesn’t mean the church fellowship owns his works, imo.

Again "IMO" means nothing - this is now a legal matter. There have already been court cases.
As I stated before - in some denominations - a pastor is definitely an employee.

So to protect both the pastor and church - an agreement should be reached
as advised by Lifeway!
Who Owns a Pastor’s Sermon? - Lifeway Research

Unless you can show an otherwise legal status -
This is my last word on this.

 

[Reynolds]

and the latest legal advice is that should be part of the agreement (contract) with the pastor.

But stop and think about it - the church pays his full time salary (and benefits) thus when he writes a book - it technically was written on church time. In addition - if he was not pastor of that church - he would not have the "soapbox" have a "best-seller"

Its the same in secular business -an employee of a major corp comes up with an invention or some other item to copyright or other legal ownership - that would belong to the company - as the individual is doing much of it on company time.

Full time would be 40 a week. Man has hours outside those 40 to write.