John MacArthur

[jbh28]

If they are deserving of damnation, then it is not unconditional, yet Calvinists claim Romans 9 supports Unconditional Election.

you are not speaking about the same thing here. I was speaking of deserving of damnation. Unconditional refers to election.

God is under obligation to keep his promise, and he has promised to save those who repent and trust in Jesus.

thats true. God wasn't under obligation by any outside force, but chose to save us because of his mercy.

Calvinist play on words. Calvinism teaches that God only regenerates a certain elect, and only these persons have the ability to believe and be saved. Those who are not elect, those whom God passes by are utterly unable to believe. So, it is perfectly accurate to say they have no chance whatsoever to be saved.

It's not accurate to any honest person, only to those that are trying to make something someone else look false.

You try to use clever arguments to argue anyone can be saved, when that is impossible if Calvinism were really true. Thank God Calvinism is not true and that any man can be saved.

No Calvinist believe that there are people that believe, but cannot be saved. My point though still remains, we all deserve hell and don't deserve salvation nor that chance to be saved.

 

[jbh28]

But Calvinists believe God WILL NOT call some of them, therefore not even giving them the chance to believe, therefore condemning them for not accepting something (Jesus Christ) when He created them with no power to do so! :BangHead: Ridiculous.

They are still condemned because they are sinners. God not saving someone doesn't change the fact that people are sinners and deserve hell. All who are saved are saved by God's undeserving grace. We don't deserve salvation nor that chance to be saved. So if God chooses not to save someone, he is perfectly just to do so.

 

[Winman]

you are not speaking about the same thing here. I was speaking of deserving of damnation. Unconditional refers to election.

If God chooses who is saved, logically he also chooses who is lost. Calvinism teaches this choosing is unconditional, the scriptures show it is determined by faith.

thats true. God wasn't under obligation by any outside force, but chose to save us because of his mercy.

So God IS obligated to save people.

It's not accurate to any honest person, only to those that are trying to make something someone else look false.

No, it is Calvinism that is dishonest and misleading, Calvinism gives the IMPRESSION that any person can be saved, but you do not really believe that. You know very well that it is utterly IMPOSSIBLE for the non-elect to be saved in Calvinism. Those whom God chose to pass by have absolutely no chance to be saved in your system.

No Calvinist believe that there are people that believe, but cannot be saved. My point though still remains, we all deserve hell and don't deserve salvation nor that chance to be saved.

Play on words, of course no Calvinist believes an unbeliever will be saved, non-Cals and Arminians believe the same thing.

The difference is, Calvinism teaches that only those God chose before the foundation of the world to regenerate will be able to believe and be saved. Those whom God passes by cannot possibly believe and have no chance to be saved.

That would make God a respecter of persons, as all men are sinners. If God chooses to elect and regenerate some, that is favoritism.

The very fact you have to play sleazy word games reveals Calvinism for what it is.

 

[jbh28]

So God IS obligated to save people.

No he is not. If he was, it would no longer be mercy. God was under no obligation to save anyone. You DO NOT deserve salvation. I DO NOT deserve salvation. God was under no obligation to save anyone. The only reason one could say he is not because HE said he would save. But that' not my point nor was it the point of what I was responding to.

That would make God a respecter of persons, as all men are sinners. If God chooses to elect and regenerate some, that is favoritism.

The very fact you have to play sleazy word games reveals Calvinism for what it is.

God doesn't save everyone. He doesn't have to save anyone. I don't play "sleazy word game" but I see you are still in the childlike mode on these forums. I had hoped you would grow up by now. You keep missing my point. Here it is again. ALL people deserve hell. No one deserves heaven. If God saves just one and passes on all the rest, he is perfectly just to do that. I do not deserve to be saved. If God had not saved me, He would send me to hell and be perfectly just in doing so because I'm a sinner and sinned against a holy God.

 

[Winman]

No he is not. If he was, it would no longer be mercy. God was under no obligation to save anyone. You DO NOT deserve salvation. I DO NOT deserve salvation. God was under no obligation to save anyone. The only reason one could say he is not because HE said he would save. But that' not my point nor was it the point of what I was responding to.

God is obligated because he has obligated himself. God promised to save all who trust in Jesus, and God made the decision before the foundation of the world. How can you say he is not obligated?

If I enter into a contract and obligate myself to make payments once a month, the fact that I freely chose to enter into that contract does not release me from my obligation.

So, before we even existed, God chose to obligate himself to save all those who would trust in Jesus. God IS obligated to save them. That doesn't mean they are saved by works, they are saved by faith.

God doesn't save everyone. He doesn't have to save anyone. I don't play "sleazy word game" but I see you are still in the childlike mode on these forums. I had hoped you would grow up by now. You keep missing my point. Here it is again. ALL people deserve hell. No one deserves heaven. If God saves just one and passes on all the rest, he is perfectly just to do that. I do not deserve to be saved. If God had not saved me, He would send me to hell and be perfectly just in doing so because I'm a sinner and sinned against a holy God.

Everyone except Universalists know and agree God does not save everyone, that is not the point. A non-Cal or Arminian believes God offers salvation to ALL men, and we have literally dozens of verses to support this.

Calvinists alter the meaning of words like "all" in many salvation scriptures. Calvinists will argue words like "all" mean only "some" or only the "elect".

Why am I telling you this? You know this as well as me. Calvinism plays many word games and alters the meanings of many words. You know this, but you will insist you are sincere. No one is fooled.

I could never be a Calvinist for this fact alone.

 

[Baptist4life]

God is obligated because he has obligated himself. God promised to save all who trust in Jesus, and God made the decision before the foundation of the world. How can you say he is not obligated?

If I enter into a contract and obligate myself to make payments once a month, the fact that I freely chose to enter into that contract does not release me from my obligation.

So, before we even existed, God chose to obligate himself to save all those who would trust in Jesus. God IS obligated to save them. That doesn't mean they are saved by works, they are saved by faith.




Everyone except Universalists know and agree God does not save everyone, that is not the point. A non-Cal or Arminian believes God offers salvation to ALL men, and we have literally dozens of verses to support this.

Calvinists alter the meaning of words like "all" in many salvation scriptures. Calvinists will argue words like "all" mean only "some" or only the "elect".

Why am I telling you this? You know this as well as me. Calvinism plays many word games and alters the meanings of many words. You know this, but you will insist you are sincere. No one is fooled.

I could never be a Calvinist for this fact alone.

I'll give you another "Amen" for this post!

 

[jonathan.borland]

The fatalism of Calvinistic-like doctrines were a frequent attack against the early Christians. That's why the 2nd-century Christian apologists so vigorously defended man's real and not apparent ability to respond to the Holy Spirit's conviction either positively or negatively.

 

[Herald]

The fatalism of Calvinistic-like doctrines were a frequent attack against the early Christians.

Really? Really? The early Church was threatened by heresies such as Arianism, Donatsim, Gnosticism, Docetism, Nestorianism et. al. Which of the early church heresies were fatalistic in nature?

You're free to criticize the DoG, but you're not free to just throw things out without sourcing them.

 

[jbh28]

God is obligated because he has obligated himself. God promised to save all who trust in Jesus, and God made the decision before the foundation of the world. How can you say he is not obligated?

If I enter into a contract and obligate myself to make payments once a month, the fact that I freely chose to enter into that contract does not release me from my obligation.

So, before we even existed, God chose to obligate himself to save all those who would trust in Jesus. God IS obligated to save them. That doesn't mean they are saved by works, they are saved by faith.

Did you read what I wrote Winman?

God was under no obligation to save anyone. The only reason one could say he is not because HE said he would save.

God was under no obligation to decide to save anyone. Understand what I'm saying? You said, "God made the decision before the foundation of the world." and I say that God was under no obligation to make that decision.

And I agree too that God will save all that trust in Jesus(faith).

So that's my point. God was under no obligation to save anyone. He choose to save people. That was his choice. He can choose to save everyone(universalism) or choose to save some (how he chooses isn't relevant to my point). The point I was making was simply that if God doesn't save someone, he is perfectly just to send them to hell regardless of any chance of salvation. We are all sinners and deserve hell.

 

[jbh28]

I'll give you another "Amen" for this post!

Do you understand what I'm saying?

They are still condemned because they are sinners. God not saving someone doesn't change the fact that people are sinners and deserve hell. All who are saved are saved by God's undeserving grace. We don't deserve salvation nor that chance to be saved. So if God chooses not to save someone, he is perfectly just to do so.

 

[Rippon]

I'm sorry but most Calvinists today use the ESV.

That wasn't true in Nov. of 2012 or today, June 1,2013.

 

[Rippon]

He is one of the best expositors of the Bible though!

Don't have to agree with him in everything, but still a lot of meat would be left over for you to chew on!

A book countering the claims of the John 3:16 conference is Whomever He Wills. Thomas K. Ascol has a good cpter called :Calvinism Foundational For Evangelism and Missions.

Here,on page 271,he comments on the subject of this thread.

"John MacArthur provocatively declared in a 2007 sermon that Jesus was a Calvinist.The charges of being irreverant and anachronistic that resulted came from people who obviously missed the point. MacArthur was simply saying --admittedly in a provocative way --that historic Calvinism derives its views from the teachings of Jesus.No self-respecting Calvinist would ever disagree. In fact,in the way that MacArthur meant it,we could go on to say that all of the prophets and apostles were also Calvinists. No anachronism is intended. Rather,the point simply needs to be reestablished...that Calvinism owes its convictions to the Word of God,not to a sixteenth century reformer." (271)

 

[Gorship]

To get back on track...

chic tracts are terrible... you should ask her to repent