Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

[DHK]

Clearly a faulty argument. You have no idea of the way or ways in which I am (or am not) loving my neighbour in the life I lead. I cannot be in two places at once you know. Your argument seems to be that if I am not doing every conceivable good deed to my neighbour, I am not "loving" him.

I know enough about you that you don't love your neighbor as yourself.
I am not deceived. You don't even take the Bible literally. These statements are merely allegoric statements to you, not to be taken literally. If you were serious about them you would be fulfilling the Great Commission right now:

Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

But you are not doing that.

If you believed in the least iota of what you are setting forth on this board then you would follow Jesus command:

Go, sell all that you have, give to the poor, deny yourself, and follow me.

Have you done that? Why not?

Give honest and fair answers.

Love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus taught that our neighbor are all those that are in the world. Tell me how you treat yourself.
Tell me how you treat those in Asia and Africa.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Again, you apply this unrealistic standard that every statement of Jesus' must be qualified by an entire theology.

You are precisely correct when you charge me with applying an entire theology to every statement made by Christ. There are but two contrasting options considered in scriptures just as Paul points out in Romans 2:27. There is the theology of "works" versus the theology of "faith" when it comes to the doctrine of justification in the sight of God. They cannot be fused. They are always regarded as pitted against each other, always contrasted.

There are not three or four options but only TWO. There are only two options possible and they contradict each other.

1. Works - You are justified by personal obedience to God's Law
2. Faith - You are justified by substitutionary obedience to God's law

The Scribe in Luke 10 and the Ruler in Matthew 19 and the jews in Romans 2:17-29 and in Galatians chose to explore the option of personal obedience to God's law and so Christ told them what that option demands for the law to JUSTIFY you as "good" in God's sight - GOOD AS GOD - that is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS and he has no lower standard.

However, that option no human being can measure up to as Jesus plainly told the Rich young ruler - THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE AND THAT IS GOD.

 

[Dr. Walter]

for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The above text is found in the context of sanctification of those already justified and "in Christ" (Rom. 8:1).

The born again child of God has two natures "the old man" and the "inward man" that delights in the law of God. At all times one or the other is in control of his conscious self ("I" - mind, soul, will in Romans 7:18-23).

When the old nature gains control what is expressed in the life of the believer is "death" or a life characterized by deeds that are separated from God's revealed will. In contrast when the conscious self (mind, will, emotions "I") is under the control of the Holy Spirit what is being expressed in the life of the believer is the revealed will of God or the "life" of Christ made manifest. It is the difference between putting on in your life the NEW versus the OLD man. When the old man is put on or manifested through your words and actions is DEATH or separation from God's revealed will. When you put on the New man in your words and actions what is manifested is the LIFE of Christ. This is what Paul meant by wising up and redeeming the time by coming under the control of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 5:16-18. This is what he means here. The same indwelling Spirit that regenerates, empowers so that your daily life is SAVED for God's glory, the good of others and eternal rewards is the same Spirit that raises the dead body from the grave.
What is at stake here as far as eternity is not salvation of the soul or entance into heaven but only present usefulness, blessings and future rewards (I Cor. 3:11-15).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I did respond to post #190 just look after it. Perhaps you mean another post?

Sorry, I meant 209

 

[Dr. Walter]

No, I am not a nominalist. I do not deny the reality of abstracts in some concrete forms. I guess, that would classify me philosophically more as a moderate realist.

I am a Biblicist in the sense that I believe the Bible is contextually self-defining and therefore is not to be intepreted by the ever changing philosophical human perception. I also believe the Bible defines it's own culture providing principles and precepts for every aspect of life and therefore creates it's own culture wtihin the constant changing worldly culture. I am a Biblicist in that I believe the Bible as the final authority for doctrine and practice.

I think its on these grounds that the Catholic Church is failed to be understood in that they use established philisophical terms to express ideas. Whrere as if you understood these terminology you would understand Catholicism better. Not agree with it mind you. Of course I don't. However, it would makes things a lot more explainable. However, it is the language which they converse in.

Now you claim to be a biblicist. Which, has the air of loftily seeming knowldege. However, when described I doubt its really anything of value. When you say biblicist what is it that you mean? The fact is depending on your background and educational discipline allows you to approach the bible from that arena. And limits a person to that perspective. So define biblicist as you understand it. and within the realm of how you understand the bible are you a Nominalist? Note the Catholics weren't the first to understand scritpures this way. Paul in some respects does this and Philo to a greater extent does this.

 

[Andre]

I know enough about you that you don't love your neighbor as yourself.

You, of course, know no such thing.

I am not deceived. You don't even take the Bible literally.

Well, I certainly do take this statement literally:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

These statements are merely allegoric statements to you, not to be taken literally. If you were serious about them you would be fulfilling the Great Commission right now:

Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Faulty argument. Jesus instructs us to a do a lot of things. This does not mean that we are to do these things 100 % of the time. When I am going to the bathroom, I am by myself and not preaching the gospel to anyone.

 

[Andre]

If you believed in the least iota of what you are setting forth on this board then you would follow Jesus command:

Go, sell all that you have, give to the poor, deny yourself, and follow me.

Have you done that? Why not?

Give honest and fair answers.

Love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus taught that our neighbor are all those that are in the world. Tell me how you treat yourself.
Tell me how you treat those in Asia and Africa.

The issue is not whether I do, or do not do all these things to the maximum possible level.

The issue is this: we are clearly told in the scriptures that ultimate salvation is based on our deeds. We are not told what the "passing
" standard is - but we are assured that if we have faith in Jesus, we will indeed meet the standard.

 

[DHK]

The issue is not whether I do, or do not do all these things to the maximum possible level.

The issue is this: we are clearly told in the scriptures that ultimate salvation is based on our deeds. We are not told what the "passing
" standard is - but we are assured that if we have faith in Jesus, we will indeed meet the standard.

If deeds are the standard then then the standard is perfection, a standard that you will never meet in this life time, a standard that will only condemn you to an eternity to Hell.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--Do you continue in ALL things that are written in the law: every minute of every day, every day of your life from birth to death, never sinning even once in your life. You have not sinned? If even one sin you have committed, according to this verse you are cursed under the law.

Furthermore, the Bible also condemns you putting this verse next to Romans 3:4 where it says "Let God be true but every man a liar." You are a liar according to God. You have already transgressed the law of God, and are indeed under God's curse condemned to an eternity separated from God in a place called Hell.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The issue is not whether I do, or do not do all these things to the maximum possible level.

The issue is this: we are clearly told in the scriptures that ultimate salvation is based on our deeds. We are not told what the "passing
" standard is - but we are assured that if we have faith in Jesus, we will indeed meet the standard.

We are not told in Scripture that ultimate salvation is based on our deeds. We are told in Scripture that our justification is grounded upon the deeds and perfect obedience of Christ alone and imputed to us on the basis of faith alone.

 

[Matt Black]

If Martin Luther's view of Justification is "no longer" an occassion for condemnation of Luther by the RCC - does that mean that the RC church was wrong to condemn Luther? Did it err?

in Christ,

Bob

Probably - I've heard it said that if Benedict XVI had been alive in 1517 he would have wound up a Lutheran and that if Luther were alive today, he'd be a Catholic...go figure!

The real (Reformation) issue is whether grace + faith = salvation + works or whether grace + faith + works = salvation...

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Here's a video of a Catholic bishop talking about the Joint Declaration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOtfVgY2AVU

I should also point out that the Methodists have also adopted the document.

 

[Matt Black]

I suppose I should add a further monergist option for the Calvinists: grace = faith + salvation + works.

 

[Andre]

We are not told in Scripture that ultimate salvation is based on our deeds. We are told in Scripture that our justification is grounded upon the deeds and perfect obedience of Christ alone and imputed to us on the basis of faith alone.

We are indeed told that ulitmate salvation is based on deeds:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

 

[DHK]

We are indeed told that ulitmate salvation is based on deeds:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Give the context of those verses. Tell the reference, the author, and to whom they are written, and why.
Then tell why they contradict the hundreds of other Scriptures that teach otherwise.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

We are indeed told nothing of the kind. Your being totally dishonest with the very language you quote. All that Paul gives here are those principles that God will use to judge "each person" who comes before him on the basis of their works. There is not a single solitary word or statement that says anyone CAN pass these principles or anyone WILL pass them. To state the contrary is simply a bold face lie and misrepresentation of the text and the context.

Indeed, the immediate previous and following context declare that NONE will be able to pass those qualifications. It is preceded in Romans 2:1-4 and immediately followed in Romans 2:17-18 that no person can pass this standard. For example in Romans 2:1 it does not matter who you are "whosoever thou art" you are guilty already as Paul declares "for thou doest the same things."


Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. - Rom. 2:1

He does not say YOU MIGHT do the same things (sin) but that you "DOESTH THE SAME THINGS."

Don't give us that garbage that Romans 2:1-16 is talking about those in Romans 3-5 because if that were the case he would put this passage there instead of here. Furthmore, no born again person does ANY BETTER as to "come short" of the glory of God is to come short of sinless perfection. That is why Paul writing a born again justified preacher long after being regenerated says "Not by works of righteousness which WE have done but according to His mercy hath he saved us..." (Tit. 3:5).

Your good works don't justify you any more before or after you are saved - you are still a sinner in regard to your CONDITION (I Jn. 1:8-10).

Works don't justify a saved man any more than they justify a lost man because the standard remains the same and just violating ONE POINT makes you a sinner as much as before as it does after. Something more than your PERSONAL PERFORMANCE before and after is needed to remove you from under the condemnation of the law as a sinner. You repudiate Christ and His works for justification and try to turn progressive sanctification into justification.

We are indeed told that ulitmate salvation is based on deeds:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

 

[DHK]

We are indeed told that ulitmate salvation is based on deeds:

What deeds?
What kind of deeds?
How many deeds?
When will I know how many deeds is enough?
Did Mother Theresa do enough deeds?
What about the rich young ruler in Mark 10:17-22, whose testimony was:

Mark 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
--He said that he had kept the Ten Commandments from his youth upward.
Is that good enough?

When will I know that I have done enough good works to enter into heaven?

 

[Andre]

We are indeed told nothing of the kind. YOur being totally dishonest with the very language you quote.

Please stop with these patronizing and decidedly unChristian suggestions that I am being dishonest. I do not call you dishonest or otherwise impugn your morality. So please treat me with the same respect that I show to you and others.

All that Paul states here are those principles that God will use to judge "each person" who comes before him on the basis of their works. There is not a single solitary word or statement that says anyone CAN pass these principles or anyone WILL pass them.

This is not a good argument. It would be like taking the statement "You are saved by faith" and asserting that there is "no statement that suggests that anyone will in fact ever manifest faith".

You are in a difficult position - we have Paul, in Romans 2:6-7, saying that God will give eternal life to those who persist in doing good. For some reason, you think that this is an unattainable goal and that Paul is making the decidedly odd move of stating something that is true of zero persons. I suggest that you have no evidence for not taking the statement at its face value - that indeed eternal life will be given to those who manifest good works.

To state the contrary is simply a bold face lie and misrepresentation of the text and the context.

Another outrageouns slur for which you have no evidence at all. If you do not desist with these slanderous statements, I will report your posts. And I will make sure that not only those moderators who agree with you on the theology here (i.e. DHK) are informed of this insulting, demeaning behaviour you are exhibiting.

Let's argue the texts and not call each other "dishonest" or "liars".

Indeed, the immediate previous and following context declare the very opposite that NONE will be able to pass those qualifications. It is preceded in Romans 2:1-4 and immediately followed in Romans 2:17-18 that no person can pass this standard. For example in Romans 2:1 it does not matter who you are "whosoever thou art" you are guilty already as Paul declares "for thou doest the same things."

No. In verses 1 through 4, Paul addresses the self-righteous Jew - he is not suggesting that every Jew is doing the things he has just listed in Romans 1.

As for Romans 2:17-18, Paul is again clearly directing his remarks to the self-righteous Jew. Again, there is no evidence that Paul is making a general statement about all humanity. Paul goes on to suggest that this "class of person" is a thief, an adulterer, and an idol-worshiper.

Is that true of all Jews? Of course not. We know that Paul was a Torah-observant Jew himself.

You repudiate Christ and His works for justification and try to turn progressive sanctification into justification.

A slanderously false statement, for which you have no supporting evidence whatsoever.

 

[Andre]

When will I know that I have done enough good works to enter into heaven?

If you have placed faith in Jesus Christ, then the Spirit will do the necessary good deeds. In other words, on Paul's model, it is precisely because the Spirit is trustworthy to generate the deeds, we do not need to know the specific "standard":

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus

 

[DHK]

If you have placed faith in Jesus Christ, then the Spirit will do the necessary good deeds. In other words, on Paul's model, it is precisely because the Spirit is trustworthy to generate the deeds, we do not need to know the specific "standard":

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus

Yes we do. The specific standard is perfection which no man can meet.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
--One transgression of the law is sin.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--The equivalent of committing one sin is the equivalent of breaking all the commandments of God.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--Even one sin, one transgression puts under the curse; but we all know that we have sinned many times.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--Our good works cannot save. God counts them as filthy rags.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
--The Ethiopian can't change his skin.
The leopard can't change his spots.
Neither can a natural man do good. It is impossible in God's sight.

In God's sight a Holy God does not see man as holy. He is a sinner. Sinful man cannot enter into heaven.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
--Even in his saved condition it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us.

Only one who is perfectly holy can stand before a holy God. No amount of good works can make man holy.

Matthew 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
--Tell me, according to this passage do the mighty works done in Christ's name save these individuals??

 

[Dr. Walter]

The problem is there are statements that say those justified by faith "shall not come into condemnation but are passed from death unto life" but there are no statements in scripture that anyone will pass the judgement based upon their works.

From the beginning I have said that God will give eternal life to anyone who persists in good works. I used Luke 10:25-28 (the scribe) and Matthew 19 (the rich ruler) to demonstrate that point. Will God? Most certainly He will give anyone eternal life IF their works pass this judgement and the principles set forth. However, the Bible also many times denies that there is any human being that WILL pass the criteria of how the Law judges a work to be "good" for eternal life or justification before God. Romans 2:1-16 does not say one word about anyone whose works will be judged worthy of eternal life. It only sets for the same principles that works must measure up and IF they do they will receive justice.

Do you actually believe that God's standard to judge righteousness is something different than the ten Commandments as God interprets them? If only ONE sin violates that standard and brings a person under condemnation as a "sinner" now, do you think it will do less then???

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Paul did not say "no Jew" or "no gentile" but he said "no flesh" and "no man." He did not say that "no flesh" or "no man" would become a JEW in the sight of God but he said that "no flesh" and "no man" would be JUSTIFIED in the sight of God by doing the law.

DOING the law means obeying the law and obedience is defined here exactly as it is defined in Romans 2

"continueth...in all things...to do them" -Gal. 3
"by patient continuance in well doing" - Rom. 2
"(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." - Rom. 2

Please stop with these patronizing and decidedly unChristian suggestions that I am being dishonest. I do not call you dishonest or otherwise impugn your morality. So please treat me with the same respect that I show to you and others.


This is not a good argument. It would be like taking the statement "You are saved by faith" and asserting that there is "no statement that suggests that anyone will in fact ever manifest faith".

You are in a difficult position - we have Paul, in Romans 2:6-7, saying that God will give eternal life to those who persist in doing good. For some reason, you think that this is an unattainable goal and that Paul is making the decidedly odd move of stating something that is true of zero persons. I suggest that you have no evidence for not taking the statement at its face value - that indeed eternal life will be given to those who manifest good works.


Another outrageouns slur for which you have no evidence at all. If you do not desist with these slanderous statements, I will report your posts. And I will make sure that not only those moderators who agree with you on the theology here (i.e. DHK) are informed of this insulting, demeaning behaviour you are exhibiting.

Let's argue the texts and not call each other "dishonest" or "liars".


No. In verses 1 through 4, Paul addresses the self-righteous Jew - he is not suggesting that every Jew is doing the things he has just listed in Romans 1.

As for Romans 2:17-18, Paul is again clearly directing his remarks to the self-righteous Jew. Again, there is no evidence that Paul is making a general statement about all humanity. Paul goes on to suggest that this "class of person" is a thief, an adulterer, and an idol-worshiper.

Is that true of all Jews? Of course not. We know that Paul was a Torah-observant Jew himself.


A slanderously false statement, for which you have no supporting evidence whatsoever.