Josh is now in rehab .....

[Aaron]

Really? Amnon took a woman that was not his to take. I wonder where he learned that from?

That coupled with the first 6 sons of David had six different mothers. And David wasn't the best father in the bible.

Amnon was responsible for his own actions as was Josh Duggar. But to dismiss the unhealthy mindsets set before people as children only perpetuates things.

Hence.....my OP's question. What can the church do to keep these things from happening more and more?

And what destructive teaching spawned David's dysfunction?

 

[Aaron]

This long term therapy is just manipulations on the service. Josh needs freedom. He needs to be set free, and only Christ can set Him free. He cannot set himself free, and no amount of effort on his part will do it.

We need to keep in mind, that none of us are better, or more righteous than he is.

And just curious, what destructive teachings went on in the house of David that corrupted Amnon?

Meant to say, "surface." :type:

 

[Aaron]

I attended the Gothard seminars every year during my 6-year college career. Why aren't all the Duggar boys guilty? I never came away hearing that women were the cause of lust in a man's heart, nor any of the other weirded out cultic propaganda I see in blogs critical of Gothard (and many other conservative ministries).

You know the "problem" I see in the seminars? The idea that by following steps, one can secure the blessings of God. They never say that, but that's the biggest destructive notion with which folks can come away, but that notion is only a misconstrual of the teaching.

Stop thinking that kids are clean slates only to be corrupted by bad fathers. Kids are corrupted slates, and even if the father walked on water, Josh would have done his deeds. Are we going to blame the Sermon on the Mount for Judas' betrayal?

And I will say this, it's much more common than we're letting on. Some folks just move on with their lives. It was a kid thing they grew out, not damaged, not bitter, not feeling dirty, not thinking anything about it, "victims" and "perps" alike.

Now the adultery. The big deal? Not the sex. It's the betrayal. Yeah, I feel sorry for her, and for him. One in bondage to a sin is just that. In bondage, wanting to do right, but unable to. But, it won't take a miracle for her to get over it. Time, yes. But even unsaved women without the Spirit can get over a betrayal as such, but it will take a miracle for Josh to be set free.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I wondered about this, this could be key to providing suggestions. Scarlett, are you privy to something you could tell us that would fill in the blank?

I've watched them over the years and even read their website and articles, but not because I feel good about them as a family. I've worried about them long before any of this ugliness came to light. I'm NOT pleased that this sin has occurred and come to light and I will never say .... "well, I saw that coming" like some do.

Here's what has concerned me over the years:

• The older girls have a code word - "Nike" (sometimes "modesty!") - whenever they see a woman that in their opinion is improperly dressed. They yell out the word and that's the cue for their father and brothers to look down to the ground. To me, that's teaching that men can't control their own thoughts and young girls are in charge of tempering their thinking. That bothers me. It's teaching the family to look for it, but not how to deal with it. When John David became a volunteer at the local fire department, his twin sister initially went with him as a chaperon.
• Raising those children took too much of those older daughters time. It was not uncommon to see them co-raising them. I'm all for sibling chipping in and taking responsibility for family chores and helping with little ones, but this was too much to the extreme. In Michelle's own words, the household wouldn't work without that system and the older children were responsible for daily dressing, feeding, teaching, playing with and caring for the little ones. Well, what did SHE do?
• Their associations past or present with Doug Phillips, S. M. Davis, Bill Gothard, and Michael and Debi Pearl are extremely unhealthy. If you don't know what these people taught/teach about marriage and family, you should educate yourself. They claim to have distanced themselves now, but I don't believe it was until it was made known how destructive some of these family teachings were. Michelle has confessed to using blanket training on her babies. Look that one up - it will make you very angry.
• Michelle teaches an unhealthy view of marital relations. A wifely "duty", if you will. She teaches that you must say yes, if you are sick, fatigued, or just don't want to ..... it matters not. Why? Well, she says he will just go to some other woman. Again, she is advocating that a man is akin to a beast and is not responsibility for any self-control. Let's say a Godly husband and wife have a special night planned. He goes to work and she goes to work and they are both excited for the night ahead. She starts feeling feverish and has to come home. By the time he gets home, she is showing some early signs of the flu and she feels like death warmed over. He's disappointed. She's disappointed. But he tells her as they go to sleep that they will make it up later and that he loves her and that he is right here if she needs him to do anything and for her to get a good sleep. That's a Godly husband and wife and a normal way of thinking.
• I personally feel by watching Michelle over the years that she has a baby "craving" and an attention-seeking problem. I don't see Jim Bob as having that problem, but he has unrealistic expectations of his children. The constant smiling family, the constant perfection, and the constant agreeing with every thing he says is not normal.
• Michelle and Jim Bob monitored every skype, every cell phone text, and every communication between their daughters and their future husbands. Every time they were together, they were chaperoned. These girls were in their early 20's. Imagine, never having a private moment with the person you marrying - until you are married. In fact, Jim Bob and Michelle during one of their pre-marital counseling session with Jessa and her future husband demonstrated kissing techniques to them. This is not normal.

There's a whole lot more, but either you see it or you don't.

There's a huge undercurrent of unhealthy thinking going on in this family that is not really delved into in the show and to me, it's destructive.

 

[Scarlett O.]

And what destructive teaching spawned David's dysfunction?

I'm not saying and have not said that every time a person commits vile acts that they were taught this at home.

I have said and am saying that sometimes you have to look at what mindset was molded in a person growing up that lead them to sin - of their OWN responsibility.

Lots of people were raised in dysfunctional homes and don't do these things. Lots of people were raised in good and stable homes and DO commit these acts.

But when a person DOES get as deeply entrenched as Josh is, I think it's profitable to look at his childhood and raising to see if any teachings could have made him lean in this direction.

No, Jim Bob is not responsible for Josh's actions as a man.

But some of the things he learned at home contributed - in my opinion - to his excusing his own behavior.

We ALL excuse our own behavior - and I think it is necessary to look at why.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Thank you to the posters who have actually answered my question.

It's my own fault that this thread has wandered around. I think my thread title had done that and I had too many points to ponder in my OP.

To answer my own question as someone has asked.

I don't know the answer.

I do know this much. The church has GOT to talk about these things. Not in a "scare-the-sin-out-of-you" way or to make people feel so dirty that they won't confess to anyone or come forward for help.

But the church has got to teach and teach openly about how serious sexual sins are (ALL of them, not just our pet peeves) and where to find deliverance and that people aren't alone and that seeking help from brothers and sisters in the Lord is a good start.

Other than that - I don't know what to do.

 

[kyredneck]

Thanks Scarlett, I'm short on time, have to digest this later, mostly because I AM ignorant of the whole situation and your intuitions here are most likely correct. Just glossing over what you've written, it sounds weird to me.

 

[Aaron]

I've watched them over the years and even read their website and articles, but not because I feel good about them as a family. I've worried about them long before any of this ugliness came to light. I'm NOT pleased that this sin has occurred and come to light and I will never say .... "well, I saw that coming" like some do.

Here's what has concerned me over the years:

• The older girls have a code word - "Nike" (sometimes "modesty!") - whenever they see a woman that in their opinion is improperly dressed. They yell out the word and that's the cue for their father and brothers to look down to the ground. To me, that's teaching that men can't control their own thoughts and young girls are in charge of tempering their thinking. That bothers me. It's teaching the family to look for it, but not how to deal with it. When John David became a volunteer at the local fire department, his twin sister initially went with him as a chaperon.
• Raising those children took too much of those older daughters time. It was not uncommon to see them co-raising them. I'm all for sibling chipping in and taking responsibility for family chores and helping with little ones, but this was too much to the extreme. In Michelle's own words, the household wouldn't work without that system and the older children were responsible for daily dressing, feeding, teaching, playing with and caring for the little ones. Well, what did SHE do?
• Their associations past or present with Doug Phillips, S. M. Davis, Bill Gothard, and Michael and Debi Pearl are extremely unhealthy. If you don't know what these people taught/teach about marriage and family, you should educate yourself. They claim to have distanced themselves now, but I don't believe it was until it was made known how destructive some of these family teachings were. Michelle has confessed to using blanket training on her babies. Look that one up - it will make you very angry.
• Michelle teaches an unhealthy view of marital relations. A wifely "duty", if you will. She teaches that you must say yes, if you are sick, fatigued, or just don't want to ..... it matters not. Why? Well, she says he will just go to some other woman. Again, she is advocating that a man is akin to a beast and is not responsibility for any self-control. Let's say a Godly husband and wife have a special night planned. He goes to work and she goes to work and they are both excited for the night ahead. She starts feeling feverish and has to come home. By the time he gets home, she is showing some early signs of the flu and she feels like death warmed over. He's disappointed. She's disappointed. But he tells her as they go to sleep that they will make it up later and that he loves her and that he is right here if she needs him to do anything and for her to get a good sleep. That's a Godly husband and wife and a normal way of thinking.
• I personally feel by watching Michelle over the years that she has a baby "craving" and an attention-seeking problem. I don't see Jim Bob as having that problem, but he has unrealistic expectations of his children. The constant smiling family, the constant perfection, and the constant agreeing with every thing he says is not normal.
• Michelle and Jim Bob monitored every skype, every cell phone text, and every communication between their daughters and their future husbands. Every time they were together, they were chaperoned. These girls were in their early 20's. Imagine, never having a private moment with the person you marrying - until you are married. In fact, Jim Bob and Michelle during one of their pre-marital counseling session with Jessa and her future husband demonstrated kissing techniques to them. This is not normal.

There's a whole lot more, but either you see it or you don't.

There's a huge undercurrent of unhealthy thinking going on in this family that is not really delved into in the show and to me, it's destructive.

Like I said, I've attended the seminars for years, and never came away with any of these notions, and I would look in vain for anything like this in the stack of materials I have.

However, I find your obsession with them to be a bit weird in itself. I think I'll look up your claims.

 

[Scarlett O.]

However, I find your obsession with them to be a bit weird in itself. I think I'll look up your claims.

Thank the Lord!! I wish more people would!

And I wish more posters would respond to the point of my OP.

 

[Revmitchell]

And I wish more posters would respond to the point of my OP.

OK, maybe I am being thick headed what is the point of your op?

 

[Scarlett O.]

OK, maybe I am being thick headed what is the point of your op?

You are not being thick-headed.

My OP was to tell that Josh was in rehab and ask what do we do to prevent the rampant addiction problem of this nature from destroying more families.

I did not want to get on the rabbit trail about the family, but I did mention the family in the OP and some asked me about it.

I wanted to stay on the discussion of protecting our families from this - and how the church can help.

I appreciate your initial response. I, myself, don't really have an answer.

 

[Revmitchell]

You are not being thick-headed.

My OP was to tell that Josh was in rehab and ask what do we do to prevent the rampant addiction problem of this nature from destroying more families.

I did not want to get on the rabbit trail about the family, but I did mention the family in the OP and some asked me about it.

I wanted to stay on the discussion of protecting our families from this - and how the church can help.

I appreciate your initial response. I, myself, don't really have an answer.

The issue you were concerned about in the op is merely a symptom. The protection will come when we get the core issue resolved. We have spent so much time wanting to be full of grace on every issue under the sun we have stopped talking about the holiness of God. It is preached far less than it used to be and it appears not many if anyone cares to be held by its standard.

In other words the church has made it easier to be less holy with little to no consequences.

 

[Rolfe]

Michelle has confessed to using blanket training on her babies. Look that one up - it will make you very angry.

Those poor kids. Ugh...

 

[Scarlett O.]

The issue you were concerned about in the op is merely a symptom. The protection will come when we get the core issue resolved. We have spent so much time wanting to be full of grace on every issue under the sun we have stopped talking about the holiness of God. It is preached far less than it used to be and it appears not many if anyone cares to be held by its standard.

In other words the church has made it easier to be less holy with little to no consequences.

Thank you, this makes sense to me.

 

[Zaac]

You know the way you started the thread title, mentioning Josh by his first name as thought EVERYBODY knows who Josh is kinda like Madonna, it made it sound a little too involved with the goings on of that family, IMO.

They should stop making statements and let this be resolved in the privacy of family.

 

[Aaron]

I've watched them over the years and even read their website and articles, but not because I feel good about them as a family. I've worried about them long before any of this ugliness came to light. I'm NOT pleased that this sin has occurred and come to light and I will never say .... "well, I saw that coming" like some do.

Here's what has concerned me over the years:

• The older girls have a code word - "Nike" (sometimes "modesty!") - whenever they see a woman that in their opinion is improperly dressed. They yell out the word and that's the cue for their father and brothers to look down to the ground.

• Found this in links to Cosmo, People, msnbc, and a host of gossip rags. Not one Duggar site showed up in the first two pages. So I'm taking this info on the assumption that it's greatly biased and not at all reflective of the real practice.
  
  
  

  To me, that's teaching that men can't control their own thoughts and young girls are in charge of tempering their thinking. That bothers me. It's teaching the family to look for it, but not how to deal with it. When John David became a volunteer at the local fire department, his twin sister initially went with him as a chaperon.

  Your opinion on less than reliable reporting is, well, less than valid.
  
  

  [*]Raising those children took too much of those older daughters time. It was not uncommon to see them co-raising them. I'm all for sibling chipping in and taking responsibility for family chores and helping with little ones, but this was too much to the extreme. In Michelle's own words, the household wouldn't work without that system and the older children were responsible for daily dressing, feeding, teaching, playing with and caring for the little ones. Well, what did SHE do?

  
  Wow. Mind your own business.
  
  

  [*]Their associations past or present with Doug Phillips, S. M. Davis, Bill Gothard, and Michael and Debi Pearl are extremely unhealthy. If you don't know what these people taught/teach about marriage and family, you should educate yourself. They claim to have distanced themselves now, but I don't believe it was until it was made known how destructive some of these family teachings were. Michelle has confessed to using blanket training on her babies. Look that one up - it will make you very angry.

  
  Can't speak to anything other than the Gothard stuff, and it's like I said in a previous post.
  
  

  [*]Michelle teaches an unhealthy view of marital relations. A wifely "duty", if you will. She teaches that you must say yes, if you are sick, fatigued, or just don't want to ..... it matters not. Why? Well, she says he will just go to some other woman. Again, she is advocating that a man is akin to a beast and is not responsibility for any self-control.

  Didn't even bother looking this up.
  
  

  Let's say a Godly husband and wife have a special night planned. He goes to work and she goes to work and they are both excited for the night ahead. She starts feeling feverish and has to come home. By the time he gets home, she is showing some early signs of the flu and she feels like death warmed over. He's disappointed. She's disappointed. But he tells her as they go to sleep that they will make it up later and that he loves her and that he is right here if she needs him to do anything and for her to get a good sleep. That's a Godly husband and wife and a normal way of thinking.

  
  Whatever.
  
  

  [*]I personally feel by watching Michelle over the years that she has a baby "craving" and an attention-seeking problem. I don't see Jim Bob as having that problem, but he has unrealistic expectations of his children. The constant smiling family, the constant perfection, and the constant agreeing with every thing he says is not normal.

  
  :sleep:
  
  

  In fact, Jim Bob and Michelle during one of their pre-marital counseling session with Jessa and her future husband demonstrated kissing techniques to them. This is not normal.

  
  Found this one. They were talking about the best way to kiss during the wedding ceremony. What's weird about that? There was no demonstration of "techniques" (plural) of husband/wife romance, which your description implied.
  
  
  In short. Everybody, especially you ladies, mind your own infernal business.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Found this in links to Cosmo, People, msnbc, and a host of gossip rags. Not one Duggar site showed up in the first two pages. So I'm taking this info on the assumption that it's greatly biased and not at all reflective of the real practice.

From my den chair, while watching an episode of the show about a couple of years ago, I saw the girls walking in town with their family calling out the code words, giggling about it, and the boys looking down.

With. my. own. eyes.

I don't do gossip rags.

As far the rest of your opinions of anything I say .... I won't try to convince you any longer.

 

[rsr]

In short. Everybody, especially you ladies, mind your own infernal business.

I would hope that Scarlett would scratch your eyes out, but that would be unChristian. Besides, Scarlett is too much of a lady, although she might be muttering "Bless your heart."

Let's see: The Duggars made a career out of presenting themselves as model Christians and a family to be emulated. It turns out that at least one son is a pervert and adulterer. Now, if this happened in a family that did not seek the limelight, it would be one thing. But it's not that one thing. Those who hold themselves up as examples -- in such a public way -- cannot expect kind treatment when it turns out they have been far from what they were presented to be.

They have held themselves up to be examples, perhaps unwittingly. It is only natural that outsiders should analyze that example to see if it is something that is truly worthy of imitating.

Now, I do feel sorry for the family, because I don't think they knew what intense scrutiny they would endure. Sure, it's fun to watch packing for 18 or so people on a road trip, strictly as a logistical exercise. Is it a life I want to emulate? No.

Our prayers should be with all of them -- especially Josh and his wife -- because they will always be defined by failure. Lord help us that we should be defined by our failures. I couldn't stand it; none of us can.

The Duggars were naive and had no idea what would come with their celebrity. I can't fault them for seizing upon an opportunity, but I think they made a bad decision in courting celebrity. They, of course, had no idea how it would turn out. God help us if all our decisions are held up to the light of intense scrutiny.

But, that said, there is no reason to expect that their practices should be exempt to criticism.

 

[rsr]

I'm sorry. I am off topic.

On topic: Churches need to deal with sexuality. Honestly. A former pastor at my church preached the Song of Solomon as an unapologetic celebration of marital love. No metaphors (apologies to John Gill) with appropriate emphasis on marriage. It was totally refreshing.

How do we deal with misconduct? That's the rub. We should deal with it honestly, but with the knowledge that misconduct can infect the body and should be corrected. That's not a popular view in this age. Love, not condemnation, is the key. But love also demands that those who are its object do the right thing.

 

[Rolfe]

In short. Everybody, especially you ladies, mind your own infernal business.

Those who seek attention, especially those who profit from it, should not be surprised when they get it.