And I would wager that 99+% of the DoG camp members see Calvinism, TULIP and DoG as equally interchangeable labels. So what point Calvinist are you OR? Or don't you believe in anything Calvin taught?
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Judgment Seat of Christ
- Thread starter steaver
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And I would wager that 99+% of the DoG camp members see Calvinism, TULIP and DoG as equally interchangeable labels. So what point Calvinist are you OR? Or don't you believe in anything Calvin taught?
savedbymercy
New Member
steaver
Yes, to me you did, since I plainly said at the outset that I believe the Truths of TULIP are Truths of the Gospel of God's Grace. See post 44 !
Yes, to me you did, since I plainly said at the outset that I believe the Truths of TULIP are Truths of the Gospel of God's Grace. See post 44 !
We would be in agreement in Monergism, however there are subtle differences in certain election doctrines & how they are stressed. As "Old School" Baptists, we also view other things differently as well like we do not follow the way Presbyterians stress sacraments (Baptism particularly)....but now your getting into areas that are best delineated by going back into the archives.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You would lose!
TULIP
TOTAL DEPRAVITY!
I don't like the term Total Depravity because it is misleading! In the minds of many depravity takes on a meaning such as "degeneracy", "debauchery" "licentiousness", and worse.
A better term which is commonly used now days is Total Inability.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION!
A perfectly correct term. If election is not unconditional then Salvation is not by Grace Alone!
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Ephesians 1:3-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Acts 13:48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
LIMITED ATONEMENT!
A true and acceptable term though the term Particular Redemption is being used now days.
John 17:1-3, 6, 24
1. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
IRRESISTIBLE GRACE!
An unacceptable term because Arminians like to say that we, who believe in the Biblical Doctrines of Salvation by Grace Alone, believe that people are dragged kicking and screaming into the Church of Jesus Christ. {Now I have seen some mothers dragging their small children down the aisle to join the church, but!} Rather than Irresistible Grace a much better term in my opinion is Effectual Calling and still better is Regeneration. Regeneration is solely the work of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 2:1-8
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
{Note}I should point out that Regeneration is followed by Conversion. Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel, and turns to God in repentance and faith. In conversion the regenerate man exercises the gift of faith bestowed upon regeneration. Regeneration must precede conversion since Scripture tells us: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Corinthians 2:14] It is important to realize that conversion is a personal experience of a regenerate person with Holy God. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience. God saves people one at a time!
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS!
Now this is one point even the freewheelers, sorry Arminians, on this Forum buy into though they prefer "once saved always saved". {They are perfectly willing to believe that God will keep them saved all by Himself, regardless of what they do, but they believe that God needs help when it comes to saving them, Strange! Very Strange!} Perseverance of the Saints is a perfectly acceptable term because those whom God has saved will, by His Grace, persevere in the Faith. I like the term Security of the True Believer also.
John 10:29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand
2 Timothy 1:12. I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
John 10:27-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.
Romans 8:28-30
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Philippians 1:6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
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Well presented OR....thank you!:thumbs:
Yes, Only in your mind. Everyone can see what you originally posted and then segmented to erect a straw man to tear down. :thumbs:
I think you know better. According to your post you yourself are a three point Calvinist, and even agree with the other two concepts, just don't like the words being used. So I think you're a five pointer through and through. I on the other hand am a one pointer, agreeing with the P, and really don't nick pick about whether it should be called "perseverance" or "preservation". You see? We are all Calvinist in some respect! Right?
Although your post has many errors in scripture applications, I will point this one out. Salvation is ALL of God from beginning to end. Nobody helps God save them. Receiving an offer of Salvation is not helping God save. Just one of many errors in the thought process of Calvinism. Oops, I mean TULIP, or TULIP's DoG.
It is very well presented, I agree :thumbs: Makes it easy to see the errors found in Calvinism's TULIP.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are mistaken. I am not a Calvinist. Calvin held many doctrines that I oppose, particularly infant Baptism and the meaning of the Lord"s Supper. On the other hand I do believe in the Doctrines of Grace or Sovereign Grace if you prefer. It is not my fault that the Reformers were also able to understand from Scripture that Salvation is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of God. I am old but I was not around 400 years ago.
The idea of a one point Calvinist, the once saved always saved type, is an anomaly, if not a contradiction. If God is unable to save sinful man without the sinner acquiescence how does God keep the man from throwing away that which he earned?
Those who believe in "FALL FROM GRACE" are at least consistent. They read the Scripture
John 10:27-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.
and say: Well I can pluck myself out of God's hand and the rest of that Scripture then means nothing!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Your supposed logic is not logical. But Arminians are entitled to be illogical. God will bring His elect to Salvation anyhow!
I like how you stomp your feet and shout "I am NOT a CALVINIST because I do not believe all Calvin taught". And then you call other people Arminian when you know they don't believe everything Arminian. I believe in OSAS, is that Arminian? Most people label me a Cal when I argue for Eternal Security of the believer.
And I also believe God will bring His elect to Salvation anyhow, so I guess that gets me even closer to Calvinism.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I sincerely apologize for calling you an Arminian. I should have known better. Though many Baptists seriously hate Calvinism and Tulip they are eager to embrace the 5th point of TULIP. I would simply point out that I made the following statement in my post # 70! I have enlarged a small portion for your edification.
I would also note that In my post #64 I defended with Scripture certain parts of the Biblical Doctrine of Sovereign Grace! But believing the Biblical Doctrines of Sovereign Grace does not a Calvinist make no matter how loudly you scream.