Just an FYI

[BobRyan]

Oh I see! So we have to stop trying to be justified by the Law to be saved and rather come to faith in Jesus Christ to be saved/born again and then we have to return back to trying to be justified by the Law again to stay saved. Yeah, that makes perfect sense! :love2:

You are using circular reasoning arguing that after being justified by faith we will need some basis for the lost to be born-again - justified after being justified.

Your logic is illusive if not openly flawed.

The claim is that that the one who is justified - born-again "is a new creation" -- and thus Romans 11 "you should fear - for if He did not spare them neither will he spare you" God's continued kindness in Romans 11 is for you "IF YOU CONTINUE in His kindness" if we continue to walk as a Christian.

That is what the text says that you can't even bring yourself to quote!!

You argue AS IF these statements by God are simply the statements of E-7 and BobRyan and so they can be thrown under the bus!

Stop and think about what you are saying/doing in that regard.

In Matt 18 "I FORGAVE YOU all of that debt" - is what God said. And then in true forgiveness revoked fashion - in Matt 18 - ALL that debt is RETURNED and full payment to be made by the unforgiving servant.

The utter destruction of OSAS with Christ's own conclusion "SO SHALL my Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive..."

in Christ,

Bob

 

[evangelist-7]

The utter destruction of OSAS with Christ's own conclusion
"SO SHALL my Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive..."

• “And these (not doing good deeds, etc.) will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous (doing good deeds, etc.) into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

Both of these are talking about everyone ... Christian and not Christian alike!

But, how can the non-Christian who does good deeds get eternal life?

Perhaps, they were chosen to be part of the elect.
Perhaps they will hear and respond to the gospel, and continue doing righteousness?
.

 

[steaver]

In my post - I comment that in your OP you do not address the actual texts that refute OSAS -

in Christ,

Bob

The OP is not about OSAS - but rather justification. That is why you didn't find any text on that subject.

In fact your OP rich in name-calling (which we see almost all the time on certain Baptist threads - without end) but totally absent when it comes to dealing with the texts that expose the flaws in OSAS>

Are you sure you are reading the correct OP? Could you provide a quote of name calling and a quote of OSAS?

In all this you still do not deal with the Gal 5:4 problem for OSAS "you have been SEVERED FROM Christ you have fallen FROM Grace".

I leave OSAS for a thread which is addressing that topic, we'll just stick with justification here in this thread which was opened for such.

So what is wrong with this protest from BobRyan using Galatians chapter 5? We have a Law Keeper referencing scripture which declares the one who wishes to be justified by the Law has fallen from Grace.

The very passage identified totally destroys OSAS. etc etc etc......

The rest of your posting is all about OSAS. This is about justification, so I will let that for another thread.

 

[steaver]

• “And these (not doing good deeds, etc.) will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous (doing good deeds, etc.) into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

Both of these are talking about everyone ... Christian and not Christian alike!

.

Here is a bible quote for you to pray about. Maybe you could teach us how this passage does not conflict with Matthew 25:46?

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (1Cor3:15)

 

[steaver]

The claim is that that the one who is justified - born-again "is a new creation" -- and thus Romans 11 "you should fear - for if He did not spare them neither will he spare you" God's continued kindness in Romans 11 is for you "IF YOU CONTINUE in His kindness" if we continue to walk as a Christian.



in Christ,

Bob

So after one is justified - born-again, one should fear judgment?

Maybe some Christians just need to be scared into obedience? I like what Paul said, "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father". (Ro8:15)

What "bondage" is Paul speaking of? One place we read of this bondage is in Galatians, the Law Keepers wanted to preach the keeping of the Law for justification. Paul says if they do this they have fallen from grace. Hmmmm - so who has fallen from grace?

 

[evangelist-7]

So after one is justified - born-again, one should fear judgment?

Maybe some Christians just need to be scared into obedience? I like what Paul said, "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father". (Ro8:15)

I keep warning everyone that they have NO idea at all about ...
Paul's method of writing to the churches (they're all his except Rome, right?).

Anything to do with the dumbing-down of America through its' school system over the past 50+ years?
If you don't know anything about it, start googling.

It'a whole lot of edification, exhortation, blessings, etc., most of which does NOT apply to most church-goers today!
Totally mixed in with his subtle warnings and threats, which DO apply to most in our churches today!
.

 

[BobRyan]

said.[/I] Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

In Romans 11 Paul points out that believing Jews AND believing Gentiles make up what God calls "Israel" (just as Paul states at the end of Romans 2). The promises of God given to Israel - then continue in true irrevocable fashion because they are not for "Children of the flesh - but children of the promise" as Paul tells us in Romans 9.

This is the accurate Romans 11 and Romans 9 and Romans 2 context for the sentence "fragment" -- "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"

So after one is justified - born-again, one should fear judgment?

Paul said that the person who IS standing by faith should have a healthy respect (the term fear) for the possibility of failing to persevere -failing to "continue in God's goodness".

God said (not -- BobRyan said)

"22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continuein His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. "

Maybe some Christians just need to be scared into obedience?

There is no indication at all that any Christian in the church of Rome wrote to Paul saying "please scare us - we are the kind of people that need it".

Rather God Himself chooses to write this to the church.


9 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Totally blowing OSAS out of the water at the same time.

I like what Paul said

That would be a welcomed change.

in 1Cor 9 Paul says "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified".

His application of his own Gospel preaching - to himself is evident in 1Cor 9.

Thus his instruction in Romans 11 - is applied across the board.

In Romans 6 Paul says that we are either in slavery and bondage to sin - and bound to obey sin... or we are servants of righteousness - obeying righteousness.

Then in Romans 8 Paul said

, "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father". (Ro8:15)

What "bondage" is Paul speaking of?

Obviously it is the bondage, slavery etc that he just mentioned in Romans 6 - bondage to sinning - to obeying sin.

In Romans 8 Paul says that the lost person does NOT obey the Law of God and indeed they CAN NOT obey the Law of God. They are in bondage to sin.


Romans 8

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


In Romans 8 - those who have this witness - this assurance of salvation, this witness by the Holy Spirit that they ARE the children of God - are the ones who "by the Spirit put to death the DEEDS of the flesh" NASB. Rom 8:13.



Your lifting of sentence fragments here and there - has a tendency to ignore these key context points.


in Christ,


Bob

 

[steaver]

I keep warning everyone that they have NO idea at all about ...
Paul's method of writing to the churches (they're all his except Rome, right?).

Anything to do with the dumbing-down of America through its' school system over the past 50+ years?
If you don't know anything about it, start googling.

It'a whole lot of edification, exhortation, blessings, etc., most of which does NOT apply to most church-goers today!
Totally mixed in with his subtle warnings and threats, which DO apply to most in our churches today!
.

Well brother, you have the Seventh Day Adventist Ellen White Law Keepers on your side, and Joseph Smith and his angel Moroni. You might want to rethink what you think you are reading. Try allowing the Holy Spirit to speak to you about these things. :love2:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Absolutely, after consulting with the Holy Spirit and much study to rightly divide the word of truth, the Spirit told me works have no part in one's justification, that it is by faith, the just shall walk by faith. The Spirit also told me that once a person is born of God that person is a child forever, it cannot be revoked, but warned that bad children will be disciplined by their Father in heaven, even to the point of physical death if need be that the soul/spirit may remain in Christ as promised.

Listen carefully, and do your homework in the scriptures, and the Spirit will tell you the same thing.



There is nothing hidden from God's children, God freely gives His children all the knowledge they need, written for us in very simple ways to understand. If it seems tricky or clever to some, I would suggest humbling oneself before God and pray the Spirit open up the truth. This is what I did about 15 years ago when I was getting confused about all the voices out there speaking different doctrines. It could be that a prideful spirit is hampering what the Holy Spirit wants to teach.



I read the scripture, what jumps out right away without doing much digging is the fact that Paul says Christians are MADE free from sin! Key word "MADE". And the fact that eternal life is a GIFT! Praise Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, and the Spirit's work which has regenerated us, recreated us with a new heart being slaves to righteousness and teaching us to love God and love each other! Grace, Grace, Marvelous Grace!

A good exercise would be to read, or sing, the hundreds of hymns written over the past couple of centuries and just feel the Holy Spirit well up within your heart! Just a warning though, you will not find any that sing about marvelous Grace "after you do all that you can do".

Grace brother, ask the Spirit what that means and get truly FREE! :love2:

(See what I put in bold in your first paragraph): Really? The Spirit told you that? The Free Will and General Baptists believe the Spirit told them that one may lose salvation by rejecting it, by an act of the will. Wonder who is right? I wonder if the Spirit tells different people contradictory things.

To determine who is right, one must look to the character of God and the nature of the created order as revealed in scripture.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Yes, I already explained to you previously that the Spirit is the one giving me understanding.



We seem to have two problems here with your summary. (1) It is obvious the Spirit wasn't consulted for your answer since it is wrong. (2) Even just reading the text without the Spirit's guidance it is wrong.

Your summary is contradictory in itself. When one becomes born again it is because they have chosen to be slaves to righteousness. They are freed from sin and have been given eternal life, once a person has eternal life, well, it is NEVER ENDING!! That is why it is called ETERNAL!! Yes, please, pray the Spirit to guide you here brother.

So, a person may chose to accept salvation but not to reject it once chosen. That is neither logical nor scriptural.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Those scriptures have been thoroughly vetted here between us and others, you reject their proper interpretation and application. One cannot force you to see your misapplication - you have that freewill right.

What is so fascinating about a Law Keeper pointing to Galatians 5 as a support passage for one losing salvation is that very passage is condemning that very Law Keeper as having fallen from Grace! Seventh Day Adventist focus their ministry on keeping the Law which no one listening to them preach would come away with any other conclusion than one must obey the Law to be justified before God. Yet they do not see the passage is pointing the finger directly at them.



You and you alone Bob is the only one I ever seen say God revokes forgiveness. It is foreign to the scriptures, to this board and to any main stream Christian preaching among a whole bunch of denominations. What is curious is the fact that you don't see this and still think it makes sense!



Another interesting chapter for a Law Keeper to reference. Seventh Day Adventist focus mainly on keeping their congregation living in fear of breaking God's Law and losing their salvation. Yet here we have a favorite passage for anti-OSAS folks, who believe that Law breaking will send you to hell, saying "you stand ONLY by your FAITH". And yet you will go away and post it yet again, over and over, when the very passage defeats your argument.

Not to mention 11:29, when it states " "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" - but just wait, another thread will be started about OSAS and lo and behold, you will post yet again these passages which defeat your argument. Now isn't that just odd????????

See bold: It is not foreign to scripture nor to the vast majority of denominations.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Well brother, you have the Seventh Day Adventist Ellen White Law Keepers on your side, and Joseph Smith and his angel Moroni. You might want to rethink what you think you are reading. Try allowing the Holy Spirit to speak to you about these things. :love2:

Why don't you stop trying to defend your position by condescension and insult.

Oh, and btw, the only one you have on your side is Calvin and his followers. The vast majority of Christendom does not believe OSAS.

 

[steaver]

Oh, and btw, the only one you have on your side is Calvin and his followers. The vast majority of Christendom does not believe OSAS.

Jesus has been giving eternal life to people long before Calvin ever came on the seen.

Do you have eternal life Thomas? Consider carefully the question before you answer........

 

[BobRyan]

Well brother, you have the Seventh Day Adventist Ellen White Law Keepers on your side, and Joseph Smith and his angel Moroni.

That kind of sand-box rant does not address the actual Bible problem for the view you are suggesting.

Notice I already debunked the idea that only somebody on your name-calling list actually supports/promotes the keeping of God's Commandments.

In my post - I comment that in your OP you do not address the actual texts that refute OSAS - such as Matt 18 (forgiveness revoked) - Ezek 18 (salvation revoked), Gal 5:4 (Fallen from Grace, Severed from Christ) etc.


Interesting phrasing "Law Keeper" given that 1John 2 says that those who do not keep Christ's commandments and yet claim to know Christ - do not know what they are talking about.

I find it odd that you would go there.

You're not actually quoting Gal 5 - just taking it out of context AS IF Paul never said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 or Christ never said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
or John had never said that the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Even your own "Baptist Confession of Faith" and your own D.L Moody and C.H. Spurgeon argue insist that the saints are to be the ones keeping the Commandments of God -(And they spell out for us that this means the TEN Commandments) the very thing you are claiming to be at war with in your comment above.

Surely you cannot spin this a "just me alone"...

In all this you still do not deal with the Gal 5:4 problem for OSAS "you have been SEVERED FROM Christ you have fallen FROM Grace".

And apparently even your own free-will Baptist denomination - rejects the unbiblical tradition of OSAS. I guess the General Baptists are getting that right.

As it turns out - name calling is not the solution to every problem when false doctrine is flatly debunked by the clear Word of scripture.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Interesting web site.

Theology—One point of diversity relates to the division between Calvinists, stressing God’s sovereignty, and Arminians, stressing the individual’s free will. Another centers around Fundamentalism.
The modern Baptist denomination appeared in the seventeenth century as twins. The older twin, the General Baptists, taught that Christ’s atonement was general, for all, and favored free will. The younger twin, the Particular or Regular Baptists, taught that the atonement was limited to the elect and that God is sovereign in electing individuals to salvation. These differences resulted in two distinct bodies, both of which arrived in America.
Although not as important as it once was, the separation continues to the present. Primitive Baptists and a few others are strict Calvinists and hold to election and a limited atonement. However, most Baptists today, whatever their heritage, accept a general atonement and also recognize a place for freedom of the will in conversion.

http://www.baptisthistory.org/pamphlets/diversity.htm

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

James and John argue that claiming belief on Christ - without the corresponding change in life - is not real belief on Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

<<Claiming belief on Christ>> is just as much the work of man of the Law as would or could be his keeping of the Sabbath Day or refraining from stealing for example. <<Claiming belief on Christ>> is USELESS 'works of the Law' OF MAN OF HIS OWN CHOICE! If not EVERY man is found a liar, God must be the liar, God forbid!

One is an Elect for salvation through the grace of God Period. Believe it or not if you will, the Elect believe it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Interesting web site.

Theology—One point of diversity relates to the division between Calvinists, stressing God’s sovereignty, and Arminians, stressing the individual’s free will. Another centers around Fundamentalism.
The modern Baptist denomination appeared in the seventeenth century as twins. The older twin, the General Baptists, taught that Christ’s atonement was general, for all, and favored free will. The younger twin, the Particular or Regular Baptists, taught that the atonement was limited to the elect and that God is sovereign in electing individuals to salvation. These differences resulted in two distinct bodies, both of which arrived in America.
Although not as important as it once was, the separation continues to the present. Primitive Baptists and a few others are strict Calvinists and hold to election and a limited atonement. However, most Baptists today, whatever their heritage, accept a general atonement and also recognize a place for freedom of the will in conversion.

Ag ja ... Karl Barth summed it up best, this is the only fork in the road of Christianity where the roads end up in different destinations or something to the effect.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I say there is one more fork in the road of Christianity where the two roads lead to different destinations and or locations on earth. But it is not the subject now.

 

[steaver]

And apparently even your own free-will Baptist denomination - rejects the unbiblical tradition of OSAS. I guess the General Baptists are getting that right.

in Christ,

Bob

I guess I should have corrected you earlier, but I'm not a Baptist, just a plain ole Christian. :tongue3:

As it turns out - name calling is not the solution to every problem when false doctrine is flatly debunked by the clear Word of scripture

Still don't see the name calling you are referring to, you don't mind being called a Seventh Day Adventist do you? Or a Law Keeper? You do believe in keeping the Law, correct?

 

[evangelist-7]

I keep warning everyone that they have NO idea at all about ...
Paul's method of writing to the churches (they're all his except Rome, right?).

It's a whole lot of edification, exhortation, blessings, etc.,
most of which does NOT apply to most church-goers today!

Totally mixed in with his subtle warnings and threats,
which DO apply to most in our churches today!

To simplify Romans 6:15-23 in one sentence ...

Paul was giving them reasons why they do NOT have to continue to be slaves of sin, which results in eternal death!

My main goal in life ...
to have just one of you guys see this extremely important truth about this passage.

Yes, important ... because this passage alone:
- reveals Paul's normal incredibly tactful method of writing
- debunks OSAS
.