BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Justification is a legal term in view of the Law of God and the condition of the lost (Romans 3 brings this out) -- as it turns out.
in Christ,
Bob
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Justification is a legal term in view of the Law of God and the condition of the lost (Romans 3 brings this out) -- as it turns out.
in Christ,
Bob
Ok..........so..........Valid for justification? This OP is about justification you know?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
As I pointed out - Gal 3 and Romans 3 start out with the legal position of the lost according to the perfect eternal law of God. The Law of God that not only condemns the lost before they accept the Gospel but that is written on the heart when the lost is "born again" under the New Covenant (hint: the moment of Justification)
- - it is only because of the Law that the sinner needs justification
--- it is only because Jesus paid our debt to the law that we have justification.
-- it is only because of that justification that we experience the New Covenant promise of the Law of God written on the heart (hint - the New Covenant).
How nice then that even the Baptist Confession of Faith gets this Bible point - easily.
I think you are going to give me an opportunity to repeat this point about a dozen times or so (if I know anything from your past history ) and so I want to say up front - "a dozen thank yous!".
in Christ,
Bob
- - it is only because of the Law that the sinner needs justification
--- it is only because Jesus paid our debt to the law that we have justification.
-- it is only because of that justification that we experience the New Covenant promise of the Law of God written on the heart (hint - the New Covenant).
How nice then that even the Baptist Confession of Faith gets this Bible point - easily.
I think you are going to give me an opportunity to repeat this point about a dozen times or so (if I know anything from your past history ) and so I want to say up front - "a dozen thank yous!".
in Christ,
Bob
Thank you!
No, you need not repeat it again. I just wanted you and everyone reading this thread to see that any said performance of the keeping of the Law does not justify the sinner. Only Jesus kept the righteousness of the Law and imputes His righteousness into the sinner by Grace through Faith.
So your answer has made my point in my question to you, interjecting the Law into threads about what a person must do to be justified or stay justified is a moot point.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Showing that justification is all about the Law of God and how it is satisfied through grace in the solution known as God's Gospel plan of salvation, is the point that never gets old.
The only person on this thread that keeps claiming that the lost person needs to obey the Law to earn justification is you and your RCC canons. And when you do it on this thread - you are claiming that as the belief of "someone else" on this board or thread. Not a very compelling form of proof - IMHO. I understand your use of RC Canon law (council of Trent - considered by Catholics to be infallible since it is an ecumenical council) - to show what Catholics believe - but it makes no sense to accuse non-Catholics of it unless they themselves make those claims.
in Christ,
Bob
The only person on this thread that keeps claiming that the lost person needs to obey the Law to earn justification is you and your RCC canons. And when you do it on this thread - you are claiming that as the belief of "someone else" on this board or thread. Not a very compelling form of proof - IMHO. I understand your use of RC Canon law (council of Trent - considered by Catholics to be infallible since it is an ecumenical council) - to show what Catholics believe - but it makes no sense to accuse non-Catholics of it unless they themselves make those claims.
in Christ,
Bob
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Nice spin, but I have become good at catching your little word twist here and there. :tongue3:
This thread has nothing to do with a "lost" person needing to obey the Law for justification, nice try.
We are speaking about a "saved" person needing to obey the Law to "stay" justified before God.
And this is exactly what you and E7 believe and preach. Now as I have noted, this is the core preaching also of the Mormon church which they received from the demonic angel Moroni, I just mention this in hopes that you two will reconsider what you think you are hearing from God and examine your positions more closely.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
That is indeed a nice "spin" since those words cannot be found in the OP. But now that you have said it - I am very glad to keep reminding you of it.
Your view rejects Matt 18 text speaking of forgiveness revoked - and then appears to blame that on me and those who do not agree with your rejection of the Bible in that regard.
You insist that those who are justified need to come back to God time and time again to "get more justification" when in fact that is not a claim anyone has made here - but you. Even your own links in the OP do not make that case of going back to God to get "justified again" as if the saints are lost again the moment they are justified.
You are at war with the "Fallen from Grace - Severed from Christ" teaching in Gal 5:4 - and so you avoid the text as if "only Catholics will read it". I find that solution to be less than compelling.
in Christ,
bob
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evangelist-7
New Member
Especially when ...
the Ephesians 2 statement about the lost being saved by grace through faith apart from works
does NOT promise that this is a permanent blessing to last until death.
I.E. Since when does any gift last forever?
So, technically, Eph 2:8-9 is only an instantaneous thing.
.
:laugh: You are really squirming now! It is I who claims a person needs more and more justification??? Everyone knows my position on this subject - OSAS - that is not insisting Christians need to keep coming back for more justification. Good one! You won't get that one past anyone here.
Now who is it here which keeps on claiming that "after you do all that you can do, then the grace of God through Jesus Christ will save you"?
Anytime performance is added to justification by Grace, it is no more Grace, in fact, Paul says you have fallen from Grace, you who would wish to be justified by the Law. Paul is scolding you in Galatians, and you don't even recognize it.
Oh good grief! The Gift is ........key word alert......ETERNAL!
Could God really make it this easy to understand.........
raying:evangelist-7
New Member
The very beginning of grace is that ANYONE might have a chance at heaven.
So, why cannot NT grace just mean "God's unmerited favor" towards some people,
which gives them the free gift of, guess what? ... the chance to gain heaven?
Sorry, many on Christian forums have admitted they see NO guarantees of heaven in Scripture!
I remind thou, and everyone else of the verses that say ...
"practice righteousness" or you're NOT righteous (i.e. you're not goin' to heaven)!
I don't believe Roberto has commented on these fine upstanding verses.
.
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Because the scripture defines what the gift is, it is not "a chance to gain heaven", scripture makes it clear the Gift is Eternal Life (Ro6:23).
Scripture also makes it clear that those in Christ have this Gift (1John5:11-13) present tense.
And that is unfortunate, God wants us to know we have "eternal" life, NOW! Those who are still determined to make salvation about their performance only frustrates the grace of God, and I'm sure it saddens Him.
And I would remind you.....
1John3:9 - "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God". (i.e. the seed justifies the born of God, not performance )!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You are pointing to 1John 3. That chapter is radio-active my friend! Notice how Steaver does not deal with it except to toss it right back into your lap?
It is like 1John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you sin not"!!
It is like the 1John 2:3-7 statement about those who claim to know Christ being liars if they do not walk as HE walked and keep His commandments.
It is like the 1John 5:2-4 statement that Love for God and Love for one another is evidenced only by those who "KEEP His commandments".
Yet beyond them all - stands 1John 3. Radio active!
That is where the Christian that would throw the law of God under the bus - would not stand for a moment.
Paul said in 1Cor 9:24-27 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified"
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Sadly for your self-conflicted posts - it is you - not me that insists this is all about "Seeking justification AFTER one is saved" but seeking it either apart from works - or with works. As if "seeking justification" in the context of "lost seeking to be saved" is the work of those already saved.
That self-conflicted idea was not my idea - it was yours. That is why I am glad you came right out and said it so we can deal with that.
As for the doctrine of James 2 "you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (which I assume you are also at war with) -- may I remind you -
----------------------------
When the lost person comes to Christ -- there is no Romans 2 message to "persevere" in staying on their lost course.
When the lost person comes to Christ - no Matt 10 message "take up your cross and follow Me".
When the lost person comes to Christ - no John 14:15 message "IF you Love Me - KEEP my Commandments".
All that is only for the SAVED person.
Steaver - your Hebrews 5 system is stuck "circling back" to the case of the lost EVEN after one comes to Christ - you seek "Justification" again - you want to come into the "Saved by Grace through faith" door open to the lost - to get back into the foyer once again.
But Paul says in Hebrews 6 that for the saved saint there is no need to continually circle back to the condition of the lost seeking to come to God - as a lost unsaved, unregenerate wicked person who seeks only to "lay again the elementary teaching about the Christ... repentance from dead works and faith toward God"
You have been sold a bill of goods to think that being stuck at the entrance to the Gospel is all God has asked of the saints. It leads you to slice off 1Cor 9:23-28, Matt 10 "take up your CROSS and follow Me... he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me".
Christ said to the formerly saved saint 'I FORGAVE you ALL of that debt" Matt 18 - and then he returns it all -- all the forgiven debt BACK to the now fallen saint. Why? Notice that God is not speaking to the one NOT Forgiven. He does not ask those NOT forgiven the nonsensical command to "forgive others just as you have not been forgiven by Me". Nor does He say to the lost "Do NOT forgive others just as you have NOT been forgiven by ME".
Thus He only asks the SAVED and forgiven to "Forgive others just AS I forgave you ALL that debt". Only those who have THEMSELVES experience in real life - the FULL forgiveness of sin and acceptance with God.
in Christ,
Bob
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I think I brought this passage up at least three times now for your answer and you have ignored it. That's odd for one who points the finger at everyone else for ignoring text and not dealing with certain passages.
Why is it "radio active" brother? Because it crushes your argument against OSAS? Because there is nothing you can say about it that would not point to OSAS?
Disqualified from what? Salvation? If it be salvation then your doctrine is salvation by performance (i.e. obedience to the Law, commandment keeping, practicing righteousness, whatever you want to call it) - "after you do all that you can do, then God's Grace will save you" .
There is no at war with scripture brother, only false and misunderstood interpretations and applications. And you have plenty of ammunition :thumbs:. It's all good though, this is how those watching and seeking truth learn and build their own house for judgment day.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You bring up 1John 3 only to avoid it without fully quoting it or expressing your strong faith in it - only to suppose that I or someone else will give you a way out of it.
But you had to know we would only embrace it fully. Surely that is the case.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Agreed - and the solution is to look at the texts in detail. Embrace them rather than avoid them.
in Christ,
Bob