Just an FYI

[steaver]

To simplify Romans 6:15-23 in one sentence ...

Paul was giving them reasons why they do NOT have to continue to be slaves of sin, which results in eternal death!

My main goal in life ...
to have just one of you guys see this extremely important truth about this passage.

Yes, important ... because this passage alone:
- reveals Paul's normal incredibly tactful method of writing
- debunks OSAS
.

Probably the best sentence in this passage you present which debunks your justification by the Law theory is verse 18 - "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness".

When one "obeys from the heart" the gospel (vs17) they become born-again, "being made free from sin" and becoming "servants of righteousness".

"Being made free from sin" - just dwell on that for a bit - "made free from sin" - "made" - "free" - "from sin".............................

John8:32 - "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free"

1Cor&:22 - "For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant".

Gal5:1 - "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

1Pt2:16 - "As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God."

No, sorry E7, no matter how much you labor in this mission to bring me or others back into the bondage of the Law of sin and death I will not! I will stand fast on the beautiful Word of God and in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made me free! Praise Jesus for His wonderful gift!

My prayer would be that you would see this marvelous truth and be set truly free from this Law keeping method for your justification. raying:

 

[evangelist-7]

PTL! ... Another breakthrough in Romans 6:15-23 ...

6:20 … in their old lives, they were free: there was NO choice to be made (it was just sin).

I wonder if any of the commentaries have this revelation?
.

 

[steaver]

PTL! ... Another breakthrough in Romans 6:15-23 ...

6:20 … in their old lives, they were free: there was NO choice to be made (it was just sin).

I wonder if any of the commentaries have this revelation?
.

I don't know about all the commentaries, but Paul "made" it pretty clear!

They were made sinners through Adam......

Ro5:19 - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

You are correct, there was NO choice to be made a sinner. Then Christ appeared, died a sacrificial death so that by HIS obedience I was "made" righteous.

 

[evangelist-7]

You are correct, there was NO choice to be made a sinner.
Then Christ appeared, died a sacrificial death so that by HIS obedience I was "made" righteous.

This is his tricky writing style ... beginning righteous, and potentially continuing to be righteous.

If BACs are righteous until they die, why all of the verses about practicing righteousness?

The Answer: those BACs who are actually righteous are practicing righteousness!

Kind of tricky ... example:
• “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

I believe we have to accept the opposite ... those not practicing righteousness are not righteous.
However, this is the kind of word games God is capable of playing.
.

 

[steaver]

This is his tricky writing style ... beginning righteous, and potentially continuing to be righteous.

It can seem tricky but really it's not, just allow the Spirit to teach you as you study to show thyself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth. However, if you fail to rightly divide you cannot blame the Spirit for not helping you, we have to have a teachable spirit, it's more than just reading words on a page.

If BACs are righteous until they die, why all of the verses about practicing righteousness?

The Answer: those BACs who are actually righteous are practicing righteousness!

A bit more deeper than that. When one becomes born-again, one is just a babe in Christ, they need to learn what righteousness looks like and how to practice it. This is the life long Sanctification process. At times a babe may not look much different than an unbeliever, but each child is on his or her own walk with Christ working out their own salvation. Think of it as raising a child from a baby on through to adulthood. It takes years and that child needs consistent training, encouragement, and discipline.

Kind of tricky ... example:
• “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

Not really, the passage is speaking about knowing false teachers. This is a test to be used on false teachers - "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you"(2:26)

I believe we have to accept the opposite ... those not practicing righteousness are not righteous.

This is correct.

However, this is the kind of word games God is capable of playing

You see, it wasn't a word game at all, we just need to study and rightly divide the word of truth. I would not ever suggest God has played games and trickery with His most Holy Word. Please, study and rightly divide!

 

[BobRyan]

Well brother, you have the Seventh Day Adventist Ellen White Law Keepers on your side, and Joseph Smith and his angel Moroni. You might want to rethink what you think you are reading. Try allowing the Holy Spirit to speak to you about these things. :love2:

Why don't you stop trying to defend your position by condescension and insult.

.

To Steve: That kind of sand-box rant does not address the actual Bible problem for the view you are suggesting.

Notice I already debunked the idea that only somebody on your name-calling list actually supports/promotes the keeping of God's Commandments.

Still don't see the name calling you are referring to, you don't mind being called a Seventh Day Adventist do you? Or a Law Keeper? You do believe in keeping the Law, correct?

I don't mind being called a Seventh-day Adventist or a law keeper - not even when John says that the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 or when he tells us Jesus said "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" - or even when your own Baptist Confession of Faith says the TEN Commandments are the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant.

But as Thomas notes above - and as I note above - you using a name calling list when you try to group in the saints who keep the Commandments of God with "the Mormon angel Moroni".

Thus you make no Bible point at all in that statement - other than the sand-box tactic of trying to group those here on this board that differ with you - with "the Mormon angel Moroni".

That tactic can not be used as a compelling argument in your favor - except possibly with fellow Baptists of a certain stripe. (So then - not General Baptists, not those who follow D.L. Moody and not those who know a thing or two about the Baptist Confession of Faith).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

But as Thomas notes above - and as I note above - you using a name calling list when you try to group in the saints who keep the Commandments of God with "the Mormon angel Moroni".


in Christ,

Bob

Your statement is not quite accurate. This thread is on justification. E7 declares the exact same as moroni - "after you do all you can do, then the grace of Jesus Christ will save you". Is this your doctrine as well? You seem to be defending E7 at every turn.

I keep the commandments of God as given by our Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles. But I do not frustrate the grace of God and falsely preach that the saint in cooperation with obeying the Law is what justifies him. Huge difference!

Thus you make no Bible point at all in that statement - other than the sand-box tactic of trying to group those here on this board that differ with you - with "the Mormon angel Moroni".

That tactic can not be used as a compelling argument in your favor - except possibly with fellow Baptists of a certain stripe. (So then - not General Baptists, not those who follow D.L. Moody and not those who know a thing or two about the Baptist Confession of Faith).

The statement I made is not "name calling" as you reported it to be. It is however thought provoking, and that is what it was meant to do in hopes of seeing some repentance of the doctrinal error....

I pray it would be compelling.

 

[steaver]

Here is a biblical truth quote from an excellent preacher.....

"The old covenant places the demand on you to perform and makes you self-conscious, whereas the new covenant places the demand on Jesus and makes you Jesus-conscious." - Joseph Prince

This is a short and precise truth as to what happens when one adds the Law to justification as opposed to one who understands the just shall live by faith.

Amen! :jesus:

 

[evangelist-7]

... the just shall live by faith.

We didn't think you believed this!
Why? Because you believe that no BAC can walk away from his salvation.

If a BAC chooses to not live by faith, he is not just, and has rejected his salvation.

If a BAC chooses to not practice righteousness, he is not righteous, and has rejected his salvation.

And many etc. ... don't wish to bore you.

Art thou quite sure you know what living by faith entails?
.

 

[steaver]

We didn't think you believed this!
Why? Because you believe that no BAC can walk away from his salvation.

If a BAC chooses to not live by faith, he is not just, and has rejected his salvation.

If a BAC chooses to not practice righteousness, he is not righteous, and has rejected his salvation.

And many etc. ... don't wish to bore you.

Art thou quite sure you know what living by faith entails?
.

Hsa14:9 - "Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein".

Gal3:11 - "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith".

Can you understand the difference between justified by the Law and walking in the ways of the Lord by faith? You are trying to tie Law keeping in with justification, or as you put it, losing salvation.

 

[evangelist-7]

Gal3:11 - "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith".

Can you understand the difference between justified by the Law and walking in the ways of the Lord by faith?
You are trying to tie Law keeping in with justification, or as you put it, losing salvation.

'Tis obvious that you have no idea what I'm talking about.
I'm not preaching Law ... I'm quoting verses that you don't like!

Argue with John the Revelator ... they're his verses.
He wrote that the righteous will be practicing righteousness.
Conversely, the unrighteous will not be.

Ergo, BACs who do not practice righteousness have discarded their salvation.

Sorry, I lost you again!
.

 

[steaver]

Ergo, BACs who do not practice righteousness have discarded their salvation.


.

There you go again, maybe you don't even realize you are doing it. This statement of yours in quotes is tying salvation with works of righteousness.

Paul is squarely against you on this.....

Phil3:9 - "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

We see 3 points here;

1. One is not saved by their OWN righteousness. Contrary to your preaching.

2. Having your OWN righteousness is "of the Law"

3. The ONLY righteousness which counts for salvation is "the righteousness which is of God by faith".

 

[BobRyan]

There you go again - ignoring 1John 3 and assuming that anyone who indeed does righteousness must be relying on "their own righteousness which is of the law".

John flatly debunks that idea.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is a biblical truth quote from an excellent preacher.....

"The old covenant places the demand on you to perform

The old covenant provides no salvation - only the rule that those who are sinless may go to heaven and those who are not sinless may go to the lake of fire.

That is the easy part - to get.

You cannot accuse anyone who does not go for the man-made tradition of being under the Old Covenant simply because they uphold the Law of God as "valid" just as does the "Baptist Confession of Faith".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

There you go again - ignoring 1John 3 and assuming that anyone who indeed does righteousness must be relying on "their own righteousness which is of the law".

John flatly debunks that idea.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Well, I don't believe I have ignored this scripture, however, if you are going to present it as evidence for support against my argument then you may want to explain it a bit for us since I'm pretty certain you would agree that you sin, so does this mean you don't know Him or have seen Him? And maybe you are not born of God then? Further explanation is warranted showing how this applys to Christians.

 

[steaver]

The old covenant provides no salvation - only the rule that those who are sinless may go to heaven and those who are not sinless may go to the lake of fire.

That is the easy part - to get.

You cannot accuse anyone who does not go for the man-made tradition of being under the Old Covenant simply because they uphold the Law of God as "valid" just as does the "Baptist Confession of Faith".

in Christ,

Bob

Valid for justification? This OP is about justification you know?

 

[evangelist-7]

Steaver ...

John is saying in 1 John 2 and 3 ...
those who are righteous will be practicing their righteousness, which they already have from Christ.

If they are NOT practicing it, this just proves that they are not righteous!

How many different ways must this be explained?

But, we ain't complaining ... No, No ... we're a-lovin' every minute.

Now, is Kindergarden class finally over?

It's up to you ... we're here willing to waste thousands of hours until you finally graduate.
.

 

[steaver]

Steaver ...

John is saying in 1 John 2 and 3 ...
those who are righteous will be practicing their righteousness, which they already have from Christ.

If they are NOT practicing it, this just proves that they are not righteous!

How many different ways must this be explained?


.

That's a pretty scant summary of quite a bit of text. Here are some points you need to explain...

1. "He that committeth sin is of the devil" [ I believe you said you do sin as do I ]

2. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God". [ Are we born of God? Can we sin? What does it mean "his seed remaineth? ]

You wish to teach, have at it!

 

[Yeshua1]

The old covenant provides no salvation - only the rule that those who are sinless may go to heaven and those who are not sinless may go to the lake of fire.

That is the easy part - to get.

You cannot accuse anyone who does not go for the man-made tradition of being under the Old Covenant simply because they uphold the Law of God as "valid" just as does the "Baptist Confession of Faith".

in Christ,

Bob

you keep parroting to us what the false prophetess spoke, but what does the lord say on this?

per paul, a REAL Apostle of Christ...

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, to whom Jesus Christ before was described in your sight, and among you crucified?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the [c]Spirit by the works of the Law, or by the hearing of [d]faith preached?

3 [e]Are ye so foolish, that after ye have begun in the Spirit, ye would now be made perfect by the [f]flesh?

geneva bible gal 3:1-3

ONLY way to get justified before God is by his Grace, received thru grace PERIOD!

 

[BobRyan]

you keep parroting to us what the false prophetess spoke,

You keep parroting to us - one name-calling diatribe after another.

But what does the Lord say about being stuck on such name-calling patterns?

And what does God say about the subject we are actually on?

Gal 5:4 "fallen from Grace - SEVERED from Christ" - is a perfect example of the Bible declaring the state of fallen from Grace - OSAS-dead.

And then we have Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked.

Ezek 18 - forgiveness revoked - salvation revoked. Heaven lost.

Romans 11 - the warning to those who "stand only by their faith" that they should "fear for if God did not spare them neither will He spare you".

Your solution of "name calling" your way out of Bible examples that fully debunk OSAS - is not the compelling solution (for those not married to name-calling) as you may have at first imagined.

The either-or logical fallacy that you present - which suggests that one can either accept the Ephesians 2 statement about the lost being saved by grace through faith apart from works - or you can accept the teaching of Christ in Matt 18 -- is not a method of Bible study that I use.

But I understand why someone who holds to OSAS might think of that as a good idea.


in Christ,

Bob