Just an FYI

[BobRyan]

As for the doctrine of James 2 "you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (which I assume you are also at war with) -- may I remind you -

----------------------------

When the lost person comes to Christ -- there is no Romans 2 message to "persevere" in staying on their lost course. "For it is not the hearers of the LAW that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law will be JustifiFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge" Rom 2:13-16

When the lost person comes to Christ - no Matt 10 message "take up your cross and follow Me".

When the lost person comes to Christ - no John 14:15 message "IF you Love Me - KEEP my Commandments".

It is not the lost who say "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified". 1Cor 9

All that is only for the SAVED person.

Steaver - your Hebrews 5 system is stuck "circling back" to the case of the lost EVEN after one comes to Christ - you seek "Justification" again - you want to come into the "Saved by Grace through faith" door open to the lost - to get back into the foyer once again.

But Paul says in Hebrews 6 that for the saved saint there is no need to continually circle back to the condition of the lost seeking to come to God - as a lost unsaved, unregenerate wicked person who seeks only to "lay again the elementary teaching about the Christ... repentance from dead works and faith toward God"

You have been sold a bill of goods to think that being stuck at the entrance to the Gospel is all God has asked of the saints. It leads you to slice off 1Cor 9:23-28, Matt 10 "take up your CROSS and follow Me... he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me".

Christ said to the formerly saved saint 'I FORGAVE you ALL of that debt" Matt 18 - and then he returns it all -- all the forgiven debt BACK to the now fallen saint. Why? Notice that God is not speaking to the one NOT Forgiven. He does not ask those NOT forgiven the nonsensical command to "forgive others just as you have not been forgiven by Me". Nor does He say to the lost "Do NOT forgive others just as you have NOT been forgiven by ME".

Thus He only asks the SAVED and forgiven to "Forgive others just AS I forgave you ALL that debt". Only those who have THEMSELVES experience in real life - the FULL forgiveness of sin and acceptance with God.

Disqualified from what? Salvation? If it be salvation then your doctrine is ...

1. I did not author 1Cor 9 -- God did. Your argument is "with the text" thus you do no exegesis of it to show that the benefit of the Gospel is not salvation but some other mythical goal. A point that you know you can never sustain from the text of 1Cor 9.

2. When we read 1Cor 9 we find that Paul himself reminds us that the whole benefit and purpose of the Gospel - and Gospel preaching is in fact salvation.

1 Cor 9
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

1. He wants to be a "fellow partaker of IT" - the Gospel.
2. He preaches the Gospel with the purpose of SALVATION to those who accetp.
3. He does not want to be disqualified from the Gospel that he is preaching

The more we read, embrace and fully accept - 1Cor 9 the greater the death that OSAS dies at that point.

Blaming me for what 1Cor 9 says - is not a legit form of exegesis.

1 Tim 4
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Paul never tires of making that 1Cor 9 point - no not even in 1Tim 4. And so the death of the man-made tradition of OSAS is beyond question.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

You bring up 1John 3 only to avoid it without fully quoting it or expressing your strong faith in it - only to suppose that I or someone else will give you a way out of it.

But you had to know we would only embrace it fully. Surely that is the case.

in Christ,

Bob

Yeah heard all that excuse before for not giving us your application of it....still waiting....while you complain that everyone else is avoiding text....

1John3:9 - "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".

 

[evangelist-7]

Oh good grief! The Gift is ........key word alert......ETERNAL!
Could God really make it this easy to understand.........raying:

The free gift of eternal life can be taken back by the Lord God Almighty!

Just as it can be thrown away by man, God can also cancel it.

And this proven by His many warnings and threats ...
which I will post again for everyone's reading pleasure.
.

 

[steaver]

The free gift of eternal life can be taken back by the Lord God Almighty!

Just as it can be thrown away by man, God can also cancel it.

And this proven by His many warnings and threats ...
which I will post again for everyone's reading pleasure.
.

The reason it is called Amazing Grace is because it is unmerited. That is why it is called a Gift. Gift and Grace must NOT having anything to do with performance, otherwise, the terms are meaningless and God's Word becomes untrustworthy. The so called "warnings and threats" must be interpreted in the light of this fact. Moreover it is termed "eternal" life, which the born of God Posses in the present having been given this as a Gift, therefore it cannot ever end.

Go and learn what this text means....1John3:9 - "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God". ......come back and teach us.

 

[BobRyan]

Yeah heard all that excuse before for not giving us your application of it....still waiting....while you complain that everyone else is avoiding text....

1John3:9 - "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".

In your efforts to shy away from the text you omit most of it. Recall that you are the one that wants to continually "circle back" to the state of the lost and the condition of coming to Christ in repentance apart from obedience.

But what do we find in the case of the saved? Read it and see that your claims do not hold up to close review in this chapter.

3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.




1John 5

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?


Here we find commands to the saved - not to the lost. By definition no lost person could be expected to act on these commands.



But in your posts you only deal with the command to the lost to come to Christ apart from works - by faith alone. Then you make the extreme claim that this is all that the bible says to the saved as well -when we all know as fact - that these Bible texts exist and they flatly refute the claims you are making.


in Christ,


Bob

 

[steaver]

In your efforts to shy away from the text you omit most of it. Recall that you are the one that wants to continually "circle back" to the state of the lost and the condition of coming to Christ in repentance apart from obedience.

But what do we find in the case of the saved? Read it and see that your claims do not hold up to close review in this chapter.

3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.




1John 5

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?


Here we find commands to the saved - not to the lost. By definition no lost person could be expected to act on these commands.



But in your posts you only deal with the command to the lost to come to Christ apart from works - by faith alone. Then you make the extreme claim that this is all that the bible says to the saved as well -when we all know as fact - that these Bible texts exist and they flatly refute the claims you are making.


in Christ,


Bob

Excellent passage of scripture! One of my favorites for teaching OSAS.

You make an error in your conclusion when you stated - "Here we find commands to the saved - ..."

If one carefully reads all of this scripture posted above, you will not see "commands" given to the saints at all. What you are reading is a "description" of the "born of God".

John goes into great detail of just what the born of God look like. There had been false teachers creeping in, antichrist John calls them (2:18) , and John says how they were manifest to be false converts (2:19) and in many ways were exposed as false converts because of their lifestyles void of love. Take notice how John does not consider these people ever saved then becoming lost, but rather calls them antichrist and declares they "were not of us" (2:19) .

So John goes into laying out a description of just what the born of God look like or act like, and of course as always, one should as Paul said "examine yourselves whether Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates" (2Cr13:5)

But what do we find in the case of the saved? Read it and see that Bob's claims do not hold up to close review in this chapter.

1John3 -

3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1John 5

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

So what we have read here is a description of the saved, the "born of God".

We find three biblical truths here which are found in many other epistles;

1) Not all who "say" they are believers truly are.

2) Those who "say" they are believers can later manifest themselves as false, never having been saved, else as John said, no doubt they would have stayed, but they were manifest that they were not of us (saved)

3) Those who are truly born of God (a) do not practice sin (b) cannot sin (c) keep the commandments of God (d) overcome the world. These are not commands, but rather are the attributes of the born of God.

Note - there are two references here to OSAS. (1) The reason the born of God "cannot sin" in this context is because "His seed remaineth". This need not sound confusing as we know from the scripture the flesh will sin, however, there is an "inner man" that is spoken of where the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ resides (Eph3:16) . Paul speaks of a truly saved one who has sinned in this manner - "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1Cr5) Also claiming that some Christians have even died because of their sins of the flesh (1Cr11:30) noting that they "sleep" a reference only given to the saved, not anyone who has died lost. (2) John claims that those who believe in Jesus Christ, the born of God, overcome the world.

 

[BobRyan]

As I keep saying - the Bible command to those who are saved is not the same as the Bible command to those who are lost.

For the lost - the Word of God wants them not to "persevere" but rather to give up.

For the save - the Word of God DOES want them to persevere and to "take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" 2Cor 10:4-5.

Those who are at war with the "Commandments of God" as John reminds us in 1John 2 and 1John 5 - cannot then claim to be in harmony with the Gospel plan for the saved saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thomas Helwys]

jesus has been giving eternal life to people long before calvin ever came on the seen.

Do you have eternal life thomas? Consider carefully the question before you answer........

...........

 

[evangelist-7]

As I keep saying -
the Bible command to those who are saved is not the same as the Bible command to those who are lost.

For the lost - the Word of God wants them not to "persevere" but rather to give up.

For the saved - the Word of God DOES want them to persevere
and to "take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" 2Cor 10:4-5.

Those who are at war with the "Commandments of God" as John reminds us in 1John 2 and 1John 5 - cannot then claim to be in harmony with the Gospel plan for the saved saints.

Your red is a neat way of pointing out that God's warnings and threats are ONLY for God's elect.
These W&T's help His elect to understand they must ensure that they co-operate fully with Him.

And they do indeed ... that's why God chose them before the foundation of the world.
Yup, dese are the guys 'n gals who are described in Romans 8:28-30!

How can anything written help anyone else? ... Because all of the "anyone else's" are going to hell.

This is new ... has it ever been spoken or written before? ...

Grace ... God's unmerited favor towards those who will be BACs.
Hell ... God's merited favor towards those who will be going to hell.

But, please note: God's grace can be "wasted" ... a BAC may (has permission to) throw it away.
BION ... man's free will is King, guaranteed!

Please try to keep your complaints to 10 per person, okay?
.

 

[DHK]

How can anything written help anyone else? ... Because all of the "anyone else's" are going to hell.

This is new ... has it ever been spoken or written before? ...

Grace ... God's unmerited favor towards those who will be BACs.
Hell ... God's merited favor towards those who will be going to hell.

But, please note: God's grace can be "wasted" ... a BAC may (has permission to) throw it away.
BION ... man's free will is King, guaranteed!
.

BAC's and those who believe in OSAS are going to Hell; that is your message, right?
That is most of us that you are accusing.

 

[evangelist-7]

BAC's and those who believe in OSAS are going to Hell; that is your message, right?
That is most of us that you are accusing.

No, it is not.
I am merely warning what the NT is warning!

And the clearest warning of all in the NT (mentioned about 8 times) is ...
Those who endure in their faith until the end of their lives will gain eternal life!
I.E. it is all to be determined later!

Now, you have to figure out exactly what "enduring in the faith" means!

Almighty God has known from before the foundation of the world who is going to hell
... I surely do not.
.

 

[DHK]

No, it is not.
I am merely warning what the NT is warning!

And the clearest warning of all in the NT (mentioned about 8 times) is ...
Those who endure in their faith until the end of their lives will gain eternal life!
I.E. it is all to be determined later!

Now, you have to figure out exactly what "enduring in the faith" means!

Almighty God has known from before the foundation of the world who is going to hell
... I surely do not.
.

Those who are saved will endure. I don't fret about it. My salvation is in the hand of Christ. I am one His sheep. I cannot turn into a goat. I am born again. I cannot be "unborn." That is Hinduism. I have eternal life. Eternal means eternal and can never mean temporary, and if it ever did, Christ would be a liar.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your red is a neat way of pointing out that God's warnings and threats are ONLY for God's elect.
These W&T's help His elect to understand they must ensure that they co-operate fully with Him.

And they do indeed ... that's why God chose them before the foundation of the world.
Yup, dese are the guys 'n gals who are described in Romans 8:28-30!

How can anything written help anyone else? ... Because all of the "anyone else's" are going to hell.

This is new ... has it ever been spoken or written before? ...

Grace ... God's unmerited favor towards those who will be BACs.
Hell ... God's merited favor towards those who will be going to hell.

But, please note: God's grace can be "wasted" ... a BAC may (has permission to) throw it away.
BION ... man's free will is King, guaranteed!

Please try to keep your complaints to 10 per person, okay?
.

Your confusion, and those who side with you is due to the fact that you do not see or understand that salvation is designed by God for the whole man who is a trichotomy (spirit, soul and body) and thus salvation is in three tenses in the scripture (past, present, future). You are confusing one aspect with another. There is one aspect of salvation that can be lost on a daily basis (soul salvation) and which will include eternal loss.

For example, ask yourself what aspect of your nature has already been "born of the Spirit"? Was it your body? No! So you body is not yet saved from sin is it? When is the salvation of the body? Future tense salvation. What has already been past tense "saved"? The Bible says it is your "spirit" that has been born again (Jn. 3:6) and it is your "spirit" that bears witness with the indwelling Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:16).

Therefore, your spirit is what is past tense "saved" and your body is what is future tense "shall be saved."

The problem where all this debate about losing and gaining salvation revolves around the PRESENT TENSE salvation of your "soul" which the same Greek word translated "soul" is also translated "life." The activity of the soul produces your life and therefore they are inseparable as cause (soul) is to consequence (life). Your "life" consists of your "works" good and bad.

Your life (good and bad works) have to do with the salvation or loss between new birth (salvation of the spirit) and resurrection (salvation of the body). It has to do with REDEEMING THE TIME (Eph. 5:16). It has to do with our "WALK" on a daily basis. Every day aspects of your life are either being saved or lost depending on if your works are produced by the Holy Spirit from the inward new man (born again nature) or from operating according to your flesh. Every work produced by your own will power and ability is lost and thus the time spent living out in the power of the flesh is lost forever. In contrast, every work produced by the power of the indwelling Spirit is saved and the time spent living it out is saved forever. Every day our life is being saved and lost according to our walk.

This present time salvation or loss of salvation has do with the conseqences (life) not with our "soul" (cause) - 1 Cor. 3:11-15. The consequences can all go up in flames (1 Cor. 3:14) but the "soul is saved so as by fire" (1 Cor. 3:16) because the basis or foundation of our salvation rests solely upon Christ and HIs works rather than our works (1 Cor. 3:11).

However, our lives can be lost daily and the conseqeunces of lost lives have present and future consequences that dramatically affect us now and in heaven. The ratio between our daily loss and salvation determines our spiritual maturity and growth, determines our present fellowship, joy, and usefulness. It determines our future rewards, status of glory manifested in our resurrected bodies, position in heaven, future status in heaven.

In addition, the reign of death over our present daily life is determined by our spiritual maturity. "Death" is separation from God and whenever a child of God is walking according to His flesh there is separation from the fellowship, and thus separation from the blessings that only are EXPERIENCED by walking in the Spirit.

The present tense salvation of the daily life has to do with EXPERIENTIAL salvation on a daily basis whether we are EXPERIENCING the salvation of in our spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit or not!

 

[steaver]

Your confusion, and those who side with you is due to the fact that you do not see or understand that salvation is designed by God for the whole man who is a trichotomy (spirit, soul and body) and thus salvation is in three tenses in the scripture (past, present, future). You are confusing one aspect with another. There is one aspect of salvation that can be lost on a daily basis (soul salvation) and which will include eternal loss.

For example, ask yourself what aspect of your nature has already been "born of the Spirit"? Was it your body? No! So you body is not yet saved from sin is it? When is the salvation of the body? Future tense salvation. What has already been past tense "saved"? The Bible says it is your "spirit" that has been born again (Jn. 3:6) and it is your "spirit" that bears witness with the indwelling Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:16).

Therefore, your spirit is what is past tense "saved" and your body is what is future tense "shall be saved."

The problem where all this debate about losing and gaining salvation revolves around the PRESENT TENSE salvation of your "soul" which the same Greek word translated "soul" is also translated "life." The activity of the soul produces your life and therefore they are inseparable as cause (soul) is to consequence (life). Your "life" consists of your "works" good and bad.

Your life (good and bad works) have to do with the salvation or loss between new birth (salvation of the spirit) and resurrection (salvation of the body). It has to do with REDEEMING THE TIME (Eph. 5:16). It has to do with our "WALK" on a daily basis. Every day aspects of your life are either being saved or lost depending on if your works are produced by the Holy Spirit from the inward new man (born again nature) or from operating according to your flesh. Every work produced by your own will power and ability is lost and thus the time spent living out in the power of the flesh is lost forever. In contrast, every work produced by the power of the indwelling Spirit is saved and the time spent living it out is saved forever. Every day our life is being saved and lost according to our walk.

This present time salvation or loss of salvation has do with the conseqences (life) not with our "soul" (cause) - 1 Cor. 3:11-15. The consequences can all go up in flames (1 Cor. 3:14) but the "soul is saved so as by fire" (1 Cor. 3:16) because the basis or foundation of our salvation rests solely upon Christ and HIs works rather than our works (1 Cor. 3:11).

However, our lives can be lost daily and the conseqeunces of lost lives have present and future consequences that dramatically affect us now and in heaven. The ratio between our daily loss and salvation determines our spiritual maturity and growth, determines our present fellowship, joy, and usefulness. It determines our future rewards, status of glory manifested in our resurrected bodies, position in heaven, future status in heaven.

In addition, the reign of death over our present daily life is determined by our spiritual maturity. "Death" is separation from God and whenever a child of God is walking according to His flesh there is separation from the fellowship, and thus separation from the blessings that only are EXPERIENCED by walking in the Spirit.

The present tense salvation of the daily life has to do with EXPERIENTIAL salvation on a daily basis whether we are EXPERIENCING the salvation of in our spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit or not!

Idk Bib, when you start bringing all that salvation of the soul stuff in I think you lose most Christians. I have a brother who is caught up in M.E. (Millennial Exclusion) heresy, and when you start separating salvation of the spirit and soul in two I think you wonder off the beaten path.

However, you are very correct to say E7 is confused.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your confusion, and those who side with you is due to the fact that you do not see or understand that salvation is designed by God for the whole man who is a trichotomy (spirit, soul and body) and thus salvation is in three tenses in the scripture (past, present, future). You are confusing one aspect with another. There is one aspect of salvation that can be lost on a daily basis (soul salvation) and which will include eternal loss.

For example, ask yourself what aspect of your nature has already been "born of the Spirit"? Was it your body? No! So you body is not yet saved from sin is it? When is the salvation of the body? Future tense salvation. What has already been past tense "saved"? The Bible says it is your "spirit" that has been born again (Jn. 3:6) and it is your "spirit" that bears witness with the indwelling Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:16).

Therefore, your spirit is what is past tense "saved" and your body is what is future tense "shall be saved."

The problem where all this debate about losing and gaining salvation revolves around the PRESENT TENSE salvation of your "soul" which the same Greek word translated "soul" is also translated "life." The activity of the soul produces your life and therefore they are inseparable as cause (soul) is to consequence (life). Your "life" consists of your "works" good and bad.

Your life (good and bad works) have to do with the salvation or loss between new birth (salvation of the spirit) and resurrection (salvation of the body). It has to do with REDEEMING THE TIME (Eph. 5:16). It has to do with our "WALK" on a daily basis. Every day aspects of your life are either being saved or lost depending on if your works are produced by the Holy Spirit from the inward new man (born again nature) or from operating according to your flesh. Every work produced by your own will power and ability is lost and thus the time spent living out in the power of the flesh is lost forever. In contrast, every work produced by the power of the indwelling Spirit is saved and the time spent living it out is saved forever. Every day our life is being saved and lost according to our walk.

This present time salvation or loss of salvation has do with the conseqences (life) not with our "soul" (cause) - 1 Cor. 3:11-15. The consequences can all go up in flames (1 Cor. 3:14) but the "soul is saved so as by fire" (1 Cor. 3:16) because the basis or foundation of our salvation rests solely upon Christ and HIs works rather than our works (1 Cor. 3:11).

However, our lives can be lost daily and the conseqeunces of lost lives have present and future consequences that dramatically affect us now and in heaven. The ratio between our daily loss and salvation determines our spiritual maturity and growth, determines our present fellowship, joy, and usefulness. It determines our future rewards, status of glory manifested in our resurrected bodies, position in heaven, future status in heaven.

In addition, the reign of death over our present daily life is determined by our spiritual maturity. "Death" is separation from God and whenever a child of God is walking according to His flesh there is separation from the fellowship, and thus separation from the blessings that only are EXPERIENCED by walking in the Spirit.

The present tense salvation of the daily life has to do with EXPERIENTIAL salvation on a daily basis whether we are EXPERIENCING the salvation of in our spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit or not!

Per our friend posting on the evils of OSAS, would he care to take that up with Apostle paul, via Romans 8?

seems that God wants us to know that salvation is His work in and thru us from start to finish!

 

[Yeshua1]

Those who are saved will endure. I don't fret about it. My salvation is in the hand of Christ. I am one His sheep. I cannot turn into a goat. I am born again. I cannot be "unborn." That is Hinduism. I have eternal life. Eternal means eternal and can never mean temporary, and if it ever did, Christ would be a liar.

god sealed his own in/by the Holy Spirit, so what can undo the Spirit seal within us?

 

[evangelist-7]

Per our friend posting on the evils of OSAS, would he care to take that up with Apostle paul, via Romans 8?

Romans 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending
His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in
us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh,
but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ
from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear,
but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ,
if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Hey! ... Iz you on the blue team or the red team? (You can do more blue and red, if you wish.)

How's your walking in the Spirit doin' today?
Have you put to death the deeds of the body yet?
Art thou indeed suffering with Him?
The point is: Are ALL BACs doing these things?
Will they ALL be doing these things before they die?
Glad you're so sure that they will.

Most BACs don't even know what being "in Christ" means!
They've been deceived by Satan, their church, etc.
Hint: it does not mean being a BAC (let's see, where's verse 1).
.

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending
His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in
us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh,
but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ
from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear,
but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ,
if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Hey! ... Iz you on the blue team or the red team? (You can do more blue and red, if you wish.)

How's your walking in the Spirit doin' today?
Have you put to death the deeds of the body yet?
Art thou indeed suffering with Him?
The point is: Are ALL BACs doing these things?
Will they ALL be doing these things before they die?
Glad you're so sure that they will.

Most BACs don't even know what being "in Christ" means!
They've been deceived by Satan, their church, etc.
Hint: it does not mean being a BAC (let's see, where's verse 1).
.

the point here is that the saved have already been justified fully before and by God, as evidenced by the seal of the Spirit upon them!

So God already eternally declared them "not guilty", as blood of jesus sufficient to cleanse and atone for ALL sin!

Do you believe the bible report on this?

28 And we know that [k]God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was [l]raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of [m]Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written,

Romans 8:28-36 Nasb

Sounds eternally securedto me!

 

[The Biblicist]

Idk Bib, when you start bringing all that salvation of the soul stuff in I think you lose most Christians. I have a brother who is caught up in M.E. (Millennial Exclusion) heresy, and when you start separating salvation of the spirit and soul in two I think you wonder off the beaten path.

However, you are very correct to say E7 is confused.

When you are able to grasp it you can see it everywhere taught in the Bible. The fact is that it is your spirit that is born again not your body. The fact is that there is a past tense aspect of salvation that is not progressive but completed and it has nothing to do with your body. The fact is there is a future tense salvation of your body and it is spelled out in 1 Cor. 15 most clearly and many other places.

The fact is that the Greek term psueche is translated both "soul" and "life" in the New Testament. Here is the issue of debate and it is not about the spirit or body. Here is where present progressive salvation is being lost and saved. Here is where you are either redeeming the time (Eph. 5:16) or its being lost forever.

This is a very simple concept that harmonizes the scriptures perfectly. All the scriptures used by those who oppose OSAS in regard to gaining or losing salvation in the present are completely answered by a correct understanding of this issue. It is just that simple.

 

[DHK]

Romans 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

This is not a "conditional" statement; rather a "qualifying" statement.
The proper meaning is Those who are in Christ Jesus will not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. It is in their character to do so. It "qualifies" who they are. It is not a conditional statement, as you wrongly take it to be.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending
His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in
us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Again, check Galatians 5. A true believer will, in his life, manifest the fruit of the Spirit, who dwells within him. The works of the flesh are not of God. Paul is speaking of that which characterizes a true believer, that which sets him apart from others. The true believer is not immune from the flesh. Paul has already dealt with those matters in chapter seven.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh,
but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

The phrase to be carnally minded is again a qualifier. Is that what the quality that characterizes your life? If so you are not saved. A believer's life will be characterized by the fruit of the Spirit. It doesn't mean he won't fail, won't sin; but in general his life will be characterized by the fruit of the Spirit and not the works of the flesh--or to be carnally minded and not spiritually minded. To be spiritually minded does not mean sinlessness.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ
from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die;

A general statement that I have already explained. A believer's life is characterized by the fruit of the Spirit and not the works of the flesh. Is your life characterized by drunkenness, immorality, theft, lasciviousness, anger, lies, etc. If you live according to the flesh--in that lifestyle, you obviously are not saved and will die both spiritually and physically.

but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

1Cor. 15:31--"I die daily."
Gal.2:20--"I am crucified with Christ..."
Jesus said, "If any man follow me let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me.
Putting to death the flesh, and denying oneself is part of the Christian life. It is not a condition of Christianity, but rather is a characteristic of it. Again Paul speaks of quality not condition.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear,
but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Amen! One of my favorite verses. The Spirit of God does dwell within me and does bear witness with my spirit that I am a child of God; does he do the same with you? Do you have that testimony?

17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ,
if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Suffering is part of the Christian life. Look at my profile. I am a missionary. I am presently not in Canada but in a nation few people would want to go. Do I suffer? Yes, plenty. I do it for the Lord's sake.
.[/QUOTE]
What "team are you on?
These are characteristics of those who understand salvation, have committed their salvation to Christ, are absolutely sure that when they die they will go to heaven. These are the qualities of their lives. They don't live by conditions. They live according to the promises of Christ.