Just an FYI

[steaver]

In his defense your mischaracterization of a person and misrepresentation of his view is unwarranted and against the rules. Because a person doesn't hold the same view you hold does not mean he doesn't believe that "Christ alone saves."
Why don't you ask him that question yourself.
If he says he believes that Christ alone saves then you owe him a humble and contrite apology.

Here, we judge things according to the Word of God NOT P4T's interpretation of the Word of God!
There is a big difference.

Yes, but what we oftentimes find here on the BB is that what the poster says is double speak. They will say Christ alone saves and then they will argue that you must have works to be saved.

 

[preacher4truth]

In his defense your mischaracterization of a person and misrepresentation of his view is unwarranted and against the rules. Because a person doesn't hold the same view you hold does not mean he doesn't believe that "Christ alone saves."

Baloney. When anything is added to Christ's salvation it is no longer Christ alone.

Why don't you ask him that question yourself.
If he says he believes that Christ alone saves then you owe him a humble and contrite apology.

I don't care what a persons answer to the the question is, OK? When their hashing out theology lays claim to other things onto salvation by Christ alone then I don't care if they say Solus Christus because that becomes invalid. It's not a panacea to make that statement, the details either prove they do or prove they do not adhere to it, and when they make any part of it works, dependent upon what a person does after, it is no longer Christ alone. Denial of OSAS does just that. It ALWAYS adds another piece. That said, these can SAY what they want but the answer is in the details. I owe no one an apology for standing for truth.

Here, we judge things according to the Word of God NOT P4T's interpretation of the Word of God!
There is a big difference.

You have no interpretations to go by, just an unfounded rant. If anyone adds to the Gospel they take away from it. What works added could be greater morally than adding the Judaizers works to Christ who were rebuked for making salvation not dependent upon Christ alone? NOTHING. And the same old thing is being done today among those who hate OSAS.

That and you're acting ridiculous. Even some Mormons claim they believe that Christ alone saves, and other groups. You should go apologize to them in an contrite and humble spirit.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes, but what we oftentimes find here on the BB is that what the poster says is double speak. They will say Christ alone saves and then they will argue that you must have works to be saved.

Exactly, it is double speak.

 

[DHK]

Baloney. When anything is added to Christ's salvation it is no longer Christ alone.

I don't care what a persons answer to the the question is, OK?

Check his profile; he doesn't belong to a cult like the Mormons as you allege.
You would rather sit there in your armchair condemnation and accuse a man falsely before he has a chance to answer for himself.
You should be ashamed.

 

[DHK]

Exactly, it is double speak.

If you really wanted to get into it, the same is true of Calvinists.
Perseverance is works.
Persevering to the end is works.
The perseverance of the saints is a works salvation, now isn't it.

I believe in the "preservation" of the saints. My salvation is preserved or held safe by Christ. I don't have to worry about persevering--a works salvation.
Now who as the double speak?

 

[preacher4truth]

Check his profile; he doesn't belong to a cult like the Mormons as you allege.

I never said he belonged to a cult now did I? That's classic you, adding another element and then attacking it as if a person made a statement they didn't make. I said others claim Solus Christus and we know they don't actually believe it because it is denied in their theology no; matter how adamantly they claim to adhere to it. It is denied in the attack against OSAS.

You would rather sit there in your armchair condemnation and accuse a man falsely before he has a chance to answer for himself.
You should be ashamed.

You should be ashamed. You accused me of a misinterpretation of Scripture to Steaver when I interpreted none. Pretend much? Which Scripture did I misinterpret? In humility, shame and contriteness apologize.

Better yet, stick to facts. And by the way, I've already seen the answers and they ALL add another element to salvation dependent upon man. Show me where this isn't true.

The precedent you most imprudently are trying to set is that if a person claims something it is to go unchallenged and is gospel true if they make a statement. Guess what fella, the JW's claim Solus Christus as well, do you believe them too? Another one, so does ev6, yet he says we must do other things as well which is a well known fact. So I don't care about your opinion, denial of OSAS is adding an element to salvation no matter how they or you spin it.

The above is why this is a debate forum, it's not a free ride forum of oblivion and naivete that we believe someone is actually ANYTHING just because they say they are. The proof is in the details.

 

[preacher4truth]

If you really wanted to get into it, the same is true of Calvinists.
Perseverance is works.
Persevering to the end is works.
The perseverance of the saints is a works salvation, now isn't it.

I believe in the "preservation" of the saints. My salvation is preserved or held safe by Christ. I don't have to worry about persevering--a works salvation.
Now who as the double speak?

You don't understand perseverance of the saints. Your's is a strawman argument and perseverance is nothing you're making it out to be. PoS is Php. 1:6, it is all God and His preserving the Saints. Get your facts straight. We dont' claim it is something we must do, that we are doing, but that it is all His preserving work, John 10:28 as well.

Funny thing is here you go attacking me in a manner you said previously is against the rules. :wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

The confusing part is when one correlates "good works" with the "saving of the soul". A soul is YOU and I, and it is saved past, present and future. has nothing to do with good works. The SOUL that sins shall die! Not the "GOOD WORKS" shall die.

When the lost comes to Christ he has no good works to bring.

When the saved comes to Christ he is not "trying to find a way to get saved".

That should be something that as you say a fifth grader would get.

When a saved person has "forgiveness revoked" for the very reason that Christ states in Matt 18 -- that too would be easy for a fifth grader to understand.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

You don't understand perseverance of the saints. Your's is a strawman argument and perseverance is nothing you're making it out to be. PoS is Php. 1:6, it is all God and His preserving the Saints. Get your facts straight. We dont' claim it is something we must do, that we are doing, but that it is all His preserving work, John 10:28 as well.

Funny thing is here you go attacking me in a manner you said previously is against the rules. :wavey:

I am not a Calvinist. I don't pretend to be a Calvinist.
I know what you say that point means, and I know what it could mean.
I can put words into your mouth just like you can put words in Thomas's mouth. You don't appreciate it; neither does he.

Just because I am not a Calvinist does not mean I don't believe that salvation is all of God from start to finish. But somehow I think you would dispute that claim but it is according to your interpretation of the Bible which I don't agree with.

 

[steaver]

When the lost comes to Christ he has no good works to bring.

When the saved comes to Christ he is not "trying to find a way to get saved".

That should be something that as you say a fifth grader would get.

When a saved person has "forgiveness revoked" for the very reason that Christ states in Matt 18 -- that too would be easy for a fifth grader to understand.

in Christ,

Bob

Since when do the saved come to Christ?? They are already in Christ. Or are you arguing for Calvinism theology?

Once salvation is clearly and simply explained to a fifth grader they will fully understand Matt 18 is not speaking about a regenerated person becoming lost for an unrepented of sin.

 

[BobRyan]

If you really wanted to get into it, the same is true of Calvinists.
Perseverance is works.
Persevering to the end is works.
The perseverance of the saints is a works salvation, now isn't it.

And the beauty is you can find all of those "persevere" and the "IF you hold fast firm until the end" statements in the Bible.

1 Tim 4 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

Heb 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

And the beauty is you can find all of those "persevere" and the "IF you hold fast firm until the end" statements in the Bible.

1 Tim 4 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

Heb 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


in Christ,

Bob

So according to your application here of 1Tim4:15, if I persevere those who hear me will stay saved also.

 

[DHK]

And the beauty is you can find all of those "persevere" and the "IF you hold fast firm until the end" statements in the Bible.

1 Tim 4 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

Heb 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


in Christ,

Bob

I believe in eternal security or OSAS.
I don't interpret those verses with a gloss superficial interpretation such as you have, ignoring basic context.

 

[preacher4truth]

I am not a Calvinist. I don't pretend to be a Calvinist.
I know what you say that point means, and I know what it could mean.
I can put words into your mouth just like you can put words in Thomas's mouth. You don't appreciate it; neither does he.

It's actually YOU who have put words into MY mouth.

Let me reiterate: denial of OSAS is adding an element of works to Solus Christus no matter how you or they spin it. Some cults claim Christ alone as well.

Just because I am not a Calvinist does not mean I don't believe that salvation is all of God from start to finish.

I don't know what you believe about Solus Christus other than you can, as well as others, and myself claim it, but you get no free ride either. The truth is in the details so I would like to see what you say you believe fleshed out. That said I don't believe only Calvinists adhere to Solus Christus, but I do know the reformers made this teaching, which is Biblical, paramount, and still do.

But somehow I think you would dispute that claim but it isaccording to your interpretation of the Bible which I don't agree with.

You mean like how you try and dispute Solus Christus away from the Reformed Brothers, and attempt to do so with your complete misunderstanding of and wresting of perseverance of saints?

Which interpretation don't you agree with? You've yet to name one.

 

[preacher4truth]

On Perseverance of the Saints, to which neither DHK, nor BobRyan, nor those of their ilk understand, I will explain the position.

Their argument is that we say we need to do something to remain saved. That's untrue.

They argue we don't know if we are saved. That is also untrue.

When we talk about perseverance of saints it is their actual preservation by Christ in eternal salvation and by His securing His sheep -- John 10:26ff.

I didn't name the 'P' in TULIP, and I admit it is poorly worded, yet you two take off with the surface statement and run with it like you have the true meaning and then create your straw man ideologies and beat upon them. Frankly you don't have and never have had the true meaning of this position. Php. 1:6, John 10:28, Eph. 1:13ff, Hebrews 12:2 &c show it is all Christ, and these passages reflect OSAS and perseverance of saints which is really preservation.

That said show me one Calvinist/Reformed on here who has said we need to do something to remain saved. You can't, because it hasn't happened, so what you do instead is put words in their mouths and refuse to acknowledge that they in fact have it exactly correct. On top of that I can show you some on here who are not of our camp that do in fact say this, and use passages of what others must do to 'get to heaven'. That is a clear cut denial of Solus Christus.

Another thing about perseverance that we adhere to is that we will continue in the faith until the end, because of Christ's abiding power in us, and because we are truly regenerate (2 John 1:2).

We also understand that those who depart, go out from among us, were never truly saved, Matthew 7:22ff and 1 John 2:19 (these were NEVER known by Christ/They were NEVER of the saints, were not ever saved) and this is true no matter what their profession was in the past.

So in a nutshell those who are TRULY regenerate will never lose salvation, and those who were not truly regenerate as described above never lose salvation because they never had it in the first place, no matter what they've professed in the past. This is why the Holy Spirit gave these passages so it would be evident they were never saved in the place.

 

[evangelist-7]

there are NO verses in the NT that state a true child of God can lose their salvation in Christ

ANY examples in nT of a saint who God sais actually lost it?

"Are you out of your mind?", asks a very innocent bystander.

I wonder if they ask crazy disruptive people to leave Pentecostal assemblies?
Just wonderin'.
.

 

[evangelist-7]

Yes, we know many don't believe Christ alone saves.

Gee, I didn't realize I am one of many ... thanks for the info!

Perhaps these are just a few reasons why ...

“… whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)

“… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)

“… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

Please, choose to be "(slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)

“… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:19)

And, if you really do become ...
"slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life." (Romans 6:22)

Are all BACs slaves of God, slaves of obedience, and slaves of righteousness?
If so, then I am wrong about all of this.

The Bottom Line is what few are willing to accept ...

Man's salvation depends on a working relationship and co-operation
between man and God (as it has always been throughout Scripture)!
.

 

[evangelist-7]

The perseverance of the saints is a works salvation, now isn't it?

Yes, perseverance of the saints is necessary, if that means ...
persevering in one's faith until the very end of one's life.
Anyone need to see 10+ Scriptures which say that?

And perhaps we should include ...
persevering with one's righteousness, which originally was imputed.
Anyone need to see the Scriptures which say that?
.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

The one who says don't use condescension and insults goes right to using them himself.

That's a lie from you, but what else is new?

Yes, we know many don't believe Christ alone saves. I see you're part of that group, not to mention your many other errors.

The only error I made here is to converse with a liar. Prove that I believe someone/something other than Christ saves, or shut your trap.

Just for the record, and to prevent the false witness from saying I am dodging: I believe that Jesus Christ alone saves, and that salvation is found in no other.

 

[BobRyan]

And the beauty is you can find all of those "persevere" and the "IF you hold fast firm until the end" statements in the Bible.

1 Tim 4 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

Heb 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

I believe in eternal security or OSAS.

Well you have free ill. I on the other hand prefer the Bible texts quoted above.

I don't interpret those verses with a gloss superficial interpretation such as you have, ignoring basic context.

Sadly - the mere quote of the texts above gives rise to your strong objection to them. I added no paragraphs of my "Interpretation" - -your own response to the mere quote of the text proves that your real argument is "with the text" itself.

in Christ,

Bob